How To Fast Track Built Environment Sustainability With Panu Pasanen of One Click LCA

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Constructive voices, the podcast for the construction people with news, views and expert interviews. [00:00:07] Speaker B: This is Freida McAvoy for constructive voices. Tune into today's episode to learn how to fast track built environment sustainability with Panu Pasanen of one Click LCA. Panu Pasanen is the CEO and sole founder of one Click LCA, the world's leading software platform for life cycle assessment and environmental product declaration in construction and manufacturing manufacturing. Hosted by Jackie de Berker. [00:00:37] Speaker C: A really warm welcome to today's guest, Panu Pasanen, who is the CEO and founder of Oneclick LCA. Panu is the brains and energy behind this easy to use lifecycle assessment and environmental product declaration software with all the world's data. Now, Panu, let's start by telling our audience your own story. I noticed you're working at Vodafone just directly before you set up one click LCA. I also noticed that you speak seven different languages, something that I'm really curious about how this affects the brain. Let's just give your personal and professional story to the audience. [00:01:21] Speaker D: Yeah, sure. Thanks and great to be here. [00:01:23] Speaker E: So, yeah, I'm a software engineer by. [00:01:25] Speaker D: Education, and when I was studying software. [00:01:30] Speaker E: Engineering, I hadn't done many language studies until then, in addition to the mandatory Swedish, that's a second language in Finland. So I just came to start studying some languages. [00:01:44] Speaker D: I started with French and German at. [00:01:47] Speaker E: That time, and then I went to basically study abroad, as many do in Finland and not anecdotally in Germany. Then one of the languages I spoke, and then it took me ten years. [00:02:01] Speaker D: To get back from mainland Europe. [00:02:03] Speaker E: Obviously that contributes on how you pick up languages. [00:02:06] Speaker D: And in that time I did work. [00:02:07] Speaker E: In a number of software companies and Intelco as well. And well, then they are kind of society infrastructure, telecoms is very useful and all that. But then from a point of view of wanting to contribute something to the environment, it's not probably the place I wanted to be at for quite some time already. I actually had some sort of business. [00:02:35] Speaker D: Going as a side hustle. [00:02:37] Speaker E: But then 2010, I came to make it my profession as well and started. [00:02:45] Speaker D: The business today known as one click LCA. [00:02:47] Speaker E: It wasn't called that back in the day and been working on that ever. [00:02:53] Speaker D: Since and not sure how it would affect the brain because I only have. [00:02:57] Speaker E: One of them, two parts. But obviously it was never a question of working on a monolinguistic market like Finland is obviously not one of the biggest countries you can target as a market either. So that was pretty much a done deal at that time that we want. [00:03:15] Speaker D: To be a global software provider. [00:03:19] Speaker C: Okay. Now, yes, it gives us a little bit of background. The fact that you are based in Finland and you are finnish by nationality. Is this something that was sort of there in the background when you said you had your side hustle and you wanted to have something that was going to affect the environment positively? [00:03:37] Speaker E: Yeah, well, I did actually have sustainability business in Finland that I had founded. [00:03:43] Speaker D: In the course of my studies from the before. [00:03:45] Speaker E: So I had been engaged in the finnish market and knew quite a lot about it. But also, it's just also from a pure impact and ambition point of view is not like necessarily where you can have the largest impact that you could. So from those points of view, also, like never was a question of targeting the domestic market here. [00:04:09] Speaker C: Okay, now, before Panu talking in more depth about one click, LCA, let's clear up some of the common questions that, you know, some of the listeners may have to deepen their understanding. Let's start off with what are the differences between embodied and operational carbon in the construction industry? And why do we need to drastically reduce embodied carbon? [00:04:33] Speaker E: Yeah, sure. So embodied carbon is the carbon that's. [00:04:37] Speaker D: Generated from the production, sourcing, transport, installation. [00:04:43] Speaker E: And end of life of the materials that are put into buildings. So when you heat up limestone in a cement kiln 24, 50 degrees, that. [00:04:55] Speaker D: Consumes a huge amount of energy and. [00:04:57] Speaker E: Generates a lot of carbon, and then. [00:04:59] Speaker D: It'S going to be carbon embodied into the cement that's used as a product. [00:05:03] Speaker E: Same when you burn bricks or cook or bake bricks, 400 degrees, and it's going to be embodied carbon again. [00:05:11] Speaker D: Same with steel, all of those things. So very high temperatures, very high energy. [00:05:16] Speaker E: Intensity industries, but they are not emissions at the building level, so they are. [00:05:22] Speaker D: Embodied into the materials installed and the. [00:05:25] Speaker E: Materials that get replaced and. [00:05:30] Speaker D: Operational carbon is then the carbon that's released predominantly. [00:05:34] Speaker E: Through the energy consumption of the building. [00:05:36] Speaker D: So what energy it consumes from the. [00:05:38] Speaker E: Grid or from district heat, if you are connected to district heat or such. And the biggest difference between them is that the embodied carbon is pretty much. [00:05:48] Speaker D: All of it upfront, right. [00:05:49] Speaker E: Because you put all the heavy materials. [00:05:51] Speaker D: All the heavy structures into the building. [00:05:53] Speaker E: Before it gets into occupancy. [00:05:55] Speaker D: So it's all front loaded. Whereas operational carbon actually can be still. [00:06:00] Speaker E: Impacted through national energy policy over time. [00:06:04] Speaker D: As the building is in use. [00:06:05] Speaker E: And you can also improve it with. [00:06:07] Speaker D: Renovations, though ideally you, of course, go. [00:06:10] Speaker E: For an energy efficient building on the day one. [00:06:14] Speaker D: And it's the front loading of the. [00:06:16] Speaker E: Emissions that makes the importance of reducing imported carbon so big, because anything you can cut there is going to have impact today, not in a decade. [00:06:28] Speaker C: Okay. What a really brilliant answer. So what is the role of life cycle assessments in identifying and reducing embodied carbon emissions? How is this done? [00:06:42] Speaker E: So life cycle assessment is a way to measure impacts over, in case of a building. [00:06:48] Speaker D: So over the whole life of a. [00:06:50] Speaker E: Building, from the sourcing of the raw materials through the construction process, to the. [00:06:54] Speaker D: Occupancy, renovation, repair, maintenance, and finally end. [00:06:58] Speaker E: Of life of a building, considering everything that happens in that time. So why it's important this? Because it allows you to be sure that you have the complete picture. So you're not going to be doing. [00:07:09] Speaker D: You know, suboptimization, for example. Of course, you could strip out insulation. [00:07:13] Speaker E: And say, great, we have less embodied carbon. But guess what? [00:07:17] Speaker D: Obviously you would increase operational carbon. [00:07:19] Speaker E: So you're looking at reducing embodied carbon. [00:07:21] Speaker D: In a way that doesn't compromise the. [00:07:23] Speaker E: Future emissions of the building either. [00:07:26] Speaker D: And how lifecycle assessment works with one. [00:07:29] Speaker E: Click LCA is that you would typically. [00:07:31] Speaker D: Have a cost plan, you would have a billing information model. [00:07:34] Speaker E: So you just plug that into one click LCA, and it finds you using AI, the appropriate carbon emission factors, and generate you the results, which are then in compliance with the standard you targeting. So, for example, Rick's greater London authority, Briam, or any other. [00:07:57] Speaker C: Okay, so just going back to 2010, when you set up the company, the growth in 14 years, because we're obviously recording in 2024 now, is phenomenal. I mean, it's now been used in around 170 countries. Can you kind of go through the whole story and illustrate all its capabilities? [00:08:20] Speaker E: Yeah, sure. [00:08:21] Speaker D: So when we started with one click. [00:08:23] Speaker E: LC, we had a couple of things. [00:08:25] Speaker D: Baked into it by design. [00:08:28] Speaker E: So first was automation, because time is. [00:08:32] Speaker D: Pretty scarce in any industry and construction. [00:08:36] Speaker E: Projects are very time compressed. So. [00:08:42] Speaker D: Automating everything that's possible was the. Was the one of the building blocks. [00:08:47] Speaker E: The second was that we have to. [00:08:49] Speaker D: Target multiple different standards, because when you come from one country and you cannot. [00:08:55] Speaker E: Just bring your domestic standards, we had to be able to serve the different countries with the local data and local standards. So all of those things, they were. [00:09:04] Speaker D: Pretty much in our, in our scheme. [00:09:07] Speaker E: When we went to the market. And with that model, we maybe took, what, five, six, seven years to get to pretty much all of Europe. And then around. [00:09:23] Speaker D: Late 18 and early. [00:09:25] Speaker E: 2019, the north american market started to shift as well. And we had been doing business with us for quite some time by that, that point. But the market was really not major. [00:09:37] Speaker D: In this sense, and it's still not. [00:09:38] Speaker E: Right, but it really started growing at that point. And from the point when the us engaged with the market, the other markets keep going ahead. And it's been more or less a story of continuous improvement and continuous expansion to new geographies when they come with. [00:09:56] Speaker D: New standards and new requirements from Australia. [00:10:00] Speaker E: Singapore, Japan, what have you. [00:10:04] Speaker D: For us, of course, also addressing more. [00:10:08] Speaker E: Sustainability concerns than just carbon, so things. [00:10:11] Speaker D: Like circularity and biodiversity, and then also making sure that manufacturers can provide data. [00:10:19] Speaker E: To people so that they can evaluate the sustainability of their products. So delivering solutions for manufacturers as well. [00:10:28] Speaker C: It sounds to me, and I'm not obviously an expert in your business, but it sounds to me like there's a good chance that you're able to bring learnings from one country or territory into other countries and territories with the work you're doing. [00:10:45] Speaker E: Yeah, definitely we can. So then when it's a, let's say a regulatory matter, whether they want to. [00:10:53] Speaker D: Consider those learnings or not, obviously depends. [00:10:55] Speaker E: More or less on the regulator in question. But there's very clear trend of good. [00:11:02] Speaker D: Practice that can be used both at. [00:11:05] Speaker E: Regulatory level as well as in the. [00:11:07] Speaker D: Private sector, just in terms of design practices. [00:11:11] Speaker C: Okay. And talk a little bit in more detail, Panu, about the role that AI plays in all of this. [00:11:19] Speaker E: So fundamentally it's a time saver and capability enhancer. So just to give an idea, in a typical cost plan, let's say you might have 2000 different articles, and they. [00:11:35] Speaker D: Are labeled in one way or other, and they are labeled that way for purposes of cost evaluation. [00:11:40] Speaker E: So it may not be always inherently. [00:11:43] Speaker D: Clear what they are actually made of, which makes the physical impacts or carbon impacts calculation pretty tricky. [00:11:51] Speaker E: And AI can improve very mundane tasks. [00:11:55] Speaker D: Such as identifying data. [00:11:57] Speaker E: So in our case, for example, the introduction of AI for english language in the UK, we were able to reduce for the concerned customers the number of not automatically identified datasets by a factor of ten, which can save quite a bit of time for end users, of. [00:12:17] Speaker D: Course, a good practice still to check. [00:12:18] Speaker E: Them, but that's one way and the. [00:12:20] Speaker D: Other is quality assurance, to be sure. [00:12:22] Speaker E: That the quality is good, because not. [00:12:25] Speaker D: Everybody who needs to work with LCA. [00:12:27] Speaker E: Can be an expert. So there can be human errors, as. [00:12:30] Speaker D: In any human undertaking, and finding them before any results get sent to a customer is of course way better. [00:12:41] Speaker C: Excellent. Now, how can adopting LCA earlier in the construction process reduce carbon emissions from anywhere from around 10% to about 40%? [00:12:53] Speaker D: That's a great question. [00:12:54] Speaker E: So how can it be done? Right? So it starts from thinking about the. [00:12:59] Speaker D: Problem in the right way. [00:13:00] Speaker E: So typically when you think about the construction project, you have a template in mind. [00:13:05] Speaker D: I will do what I've always done the same way with the same supplier, same design. [00:13:11] Speaker E: And, well, if you think that you're going to do the same thing again, guess what? [00:13:15] Speaker D: You will get the same results. [00:13:16] Speaker E: You're not going to reduce anything. [00:13:19] Speaker D: Whereas if you start to think about. [00:13:21] Speaker E: The decarbonization as a thing, you can. [00:13:24] Speaker D: Start to think about very different style of design. [00:13:28] Speaker E: So, for example, you could start think about solutions like slim floors. Then you need to work with different. [00:13:33] Speaker D: Suppliers, maybe even with different designers who are good with doing those. [00:13:37] Speaker E: But if you do that, you can cut off like up to 30, 40 floor slab thicknesses, right? [00:13:44] Speaker D: And if you do that, you're gonna be reducing a phenomenon out of concrete. [00:13:48] Speaker E: Out of the building. Or another way to think about this, if you want to just what is. [00:13:54] Speaker D: What you usually do? [00:13:56] Speaker E: I want to get concrete. I want you to deliver it in a week in this quantity. Right. So if you put out the bead. [00:14:03] Speaker D: You can get concrete that way, fine. [00:14:05] Speaker E: But if you want to get low carbon concrete, you actually need to work. [00:14:09] Speaker D: A bit ahead to secure your supply and also to allow for curing time. So instead of, for example, let's say that the concrete hardens in 30 days. [00:14:19] Speaker E: To the level that you want. It could take 60 days and it. [00:14:22] Speaker D: Could save you actually quite a lot in cost. [00:14:24] Speaker E: But you need to plan your project. [00:14:26] Speaker D: Schedule so that you have enough time. [00:14:27] Speaker E: To pour the concrete and allow it. [00:14:29] Speaker D: To harden before you start to load it. [00:14:31] Speaker E: So these kind of things you cannot. [00:14:33] Speaker D: Add as features, you need to have them in mind before you design. [00:14:38] Speaker E: And obviously, if you engage an architect or a structural engineer who doesn't know how to deal with this stuff, you. [00:14:45] Speaker D: Know it's not going to work. [00:14:46] Speaker E: So you need to have a clear. [00:14:48] Speaker D: Idea where you're heading when you are. [00:14:50] Speaker E: Tendering for the project. As an investor or project developer. [00:14:55] Speaker C: Obviously there's huge, both financial savings and environmental savings when it's worked like this. [00:15:03] Speaker E: Yeah, absolutely. [00:15:05] Speaker D: And that's, by the way, the main. [00:15:06] Speaker E: Reason why you should do it early, like, because it's so much cheaper and. [00:15:10] Speaker D: Can be cost a saving. [00:15:12] Speaker C: Fantastic. Now, going back to November of last year, 2023, Panu, there was a 40 million euro strategic growth investment in one click, LCA from PSG and infra via. What has that meant in real terms for the company, its clients, climate change and biodiversity. [00:15:36] Speaker D: Well, yeah, it's a great question. [00:15:38] Speaker E: So sustainability is very often this kind. [00:15:42] Speaker D: Of a, let's say, passion industry. [00:15:46] Speaker E: Make no mistake, it's the case here too. But counter side of that is that much of the time it's not very professionally run. And we do think of ourselves as a professionally run company, definitely. But this is becoming a business critical. [00:16:01] Speaker D: Thing for our customers. [00:16:05] Speaker E: When you have data which is affecting, let's say, the C suite bonuses, or when it's affecting bonuses for large chunk of your stuff, you want to be really sure it's correct. [00:16:18] Speaker D: We are a player who has to do with that kind of work and. [00:16:22] Speaker E: Ensure very high quality of availability, of accuracy and everything like that for our. [00:16:29] Speaker D: Customers so that they can build their. [00:16:31] Speaker E: Most complex and demanding use cases on top of it. And that's why we wanted to take investors on board, so we can be a critical enterprise partner basically when it really matters. [00:16:45] Speaker C: Excellent. Now, also in April, I mean, there's been so much happening in the last one for yourselves. In April of this year, 2024, you've acquired builders as. I don't think I'm pronouncing that correctly. [00:17:00] Speaker E: Can you pronounce it builders? [00:17:02] Speaker C: Builders? Okay. Generative AI platform. Now that's also very, very exciting news. How will that affect everything? [00:17:12] Speaker E: So the example of the slim floor slabs and that kind of thing is. [00:17:18] Speaker D: Something that everybody kind of knows or should. [00:17:21] Speaker E: But there are many solutions that you don't come to think of. Right. Because of course, you have certain capacity to think of things as a human. Well, AI doesn't think it generates. And what builders means for us is that it does feasibility studies and early phase analysis. A couple of thousand iterations per two minutes. Yeah. So that's the capability we want to. [00:17:47] Speaker D: Bring to customers so that we can. [00:17:49] Speaker E: Generate a couple of thousand options, score. [00:17:51] Speaker D: Them based on certain factors, which will. [00:17:53] Speaker E: Include sustainability factors and few others. And then the customer can have their own thoughts about it, whether they like. [00:17:59] Speaker D: It or not, whether they think there's. [00:18:01] Speaker E: Something that it doesn't serve well. But we can do very high volume. [00:18:05] Speaker D: Very quickly and we can bring new. [00:18:07] Speaker E: Ideas and consequently better performance not every. [00:18:11] Speaker D: Time, but most of the time, and at extremely fast pace. [00:18:17] Speaker C: Okay. I mean, obviously that's going to also make huge differences to the savings that we've mentioned earlier on, both to the environment and obviously to the bottom line of the companies that you're dealing with. A study by one click, LCA in February of this year shows that 59% of construction industry professionals expect at least a 10% reduction in construction and manufacturing carbon emissions. From using lifecycle assessments. However, of course, there's a lack of public policies. We can go from country to country and have big discussions about that topic. Of course, insufficient to manufacture environmental data and limited investor awareness, all of these are inhibiting progress, as you say, it's a passion for those of us who care so much about sustainability. So which are the most current and up and coming legislation developments globally that you're aware of that are setting good requirements for the industry? And how should companies be reacting? [00:19:25] Speaker E: Yeah, so there's really just two which are very big ones, but for that, I mean, it doesn't get much bigger. So they are european. And first is the energy performance for buildings directive. [00:19:38] Speaker D: This has been voted and finalized and. [00:19:40] Speaker E: Enacted now by European Commission. And every EU member state has until the 29 May 2026 to update their law to set embodied carbon as a mandatory criteria for construction permits. So they cannot be issuing any construction permits without that being considered. And that, of course, completely changes the tax. [00:20:05] Speaker D: So so far we had about, you. [00:20:06] Speaker E: Know, eight countries dealing with this in EU invariable ways. Now everybody will have to, and no matter if they like it or not. And that brings a completely different level to this game. So, I mean, you cannot get the permit. [00:20:21] Speaker D: I mean, it's a pretty strong incentive. [00:20:22] Speaker E: To deal with the topic. Right. [00:20:25] Speaker D: That's the first one. [00:20:27] Speaker E: The second is two pronged. So on the manufacturing side. [00:20:32] Speaker D: So one of them is construct carbon border adjustment mechanism. [00:20:36] Speaker E: So it's basically a carbon tax. When you import high carbon intensity materials. [00:20:43] Speaker D: To the EU on which you don't pay for carbon credits like they do. [00:20:47] Speaker E: In EU, you will have to buy them from the EU's internal market to. [00:20:52] Speaker D: Be able to import the products. [00:20:54] Speaker E: That's CBAM. [00:20:54] Speaker D: But the second one is more important. [00:20:56] Speaker E: Possibly, and that's incorporation of carbon data to CE marking. So if you want to sell a construction product in european union from a timescale which is yet to be validated, but towards the back end of this decade, you will have to have carbon. [00:21:14] Speaker D: Data for your products. And these are what you call a game changer regulations. And they are very large scale. [00:21:21] Speaker E: There are of course many others, like in Japan, in California, whatnot. But they are smaller economies individually than European Union. [00:21:31] Speaker C: So are you, I mean, in the position of both personally and, you know, in your company, are you happy? Do you feel this is sufficient for the time we're living in, or do you feel. I know you've been involved with advising policymakers also, Pano, do you feel that this is enough for right now or do you think there's more that should be done? [00:21:51] Speaker E: It's not enough. Right. So if we just look at the. [00:21:55] Speaker D: EU, what is important here is that it standardizes how you deal with this matter altogether. [00:22:00] Speaker E: And this means that when the metrics. [00:22:02] Speaker D: Are standardized, everybody can set requirements on performance, right? [00:22:07] Speaker E: So from that point on, when everybody has to have data about how is. [00:22:11] Speaker D: Your product performing, it's going to be. [00:22:14] Speaker E: Very easy to say, by the way, I'm not going to buy from you if your emissions exceed this number and that's going to create completely different competitive dynamics. Then if we look at EU is one market, but North America is obviously huge political uncertainty on what's going to happen. [00:22:35] Speaker D: Many other big regions in the world. [00:22:38] Speaker E: Where the action is really not there. [00:22:43] Speaker D: Or maybe more in words than otherwise. [00:22:46] Speaker E: So, but what's good, at least that a lot is being done enough, not but a lot. [00:22:55] Speaker C: Okay. Okay. So going back to that study that also shows Panu, that 87% of the respondents rated a lack of manufacturer environmental product declarations as the most limiting factor to lcas and embodied carbon reduction. Why are epds the best tool to prove that construction materials have low embodied carbon? And why, you know, are they integral to decarbonising the industry? [00:23:26] Speaker E: Yeah. So construction material, manufacturing industries, not for. [00:23:30] Speaker D: The whole industry, but for many of. [00:23:32] Speaker E: The industries they are quite fragmented and. [00:23:37] Speaker D: There'S a trust issue. [00:23:38] Speaker E: So it's kind of. [00:23:42] Speaker D: You cannot always trust that things are professionally done and environmental product declarations are third party verified, so they don't like, literally guarantee that everything is perfect. [00:23:55] Speaker E: But there's a lot of different controls that are being imposed on the data. [00:23:59] Speaker D: And on the, on the claims. [00:24:02] Speaker E: So it really does improve the quality. [00:24:06] Speaker D: In an industry where you can't always trust the counterparts because many of the products you buy them through hardware store. [00:24:13] Speaker E: Many of the products you buy based. [00:24:15] Speaker D: On price and it can be transactional. You never work with the same supplier. [00:24:19] Speaker E: Again as a specifier, or it can be long term as well. So they bring you the trust so that you're actually able to get value. There's some. [00:24:29] Speaker D: Otherwise this industry, due to the fragmentation. [00:24:32] Speaker E: Can be really prone to greenwashing. [00:24:34] Speaker D: Not to say that bigger industries wouldn't be, but this industry as well. [00:24:39] Speaker C: Sure, absolutely. And the word fragmentation perfectly leads me on to my next question, which is we hear the word silos in the built environment far too frequently. How do you feel the built environment sector can collaborate better? You know, going from architects to local planning officers and from constructors to contractors in a way that is based on set carbon reduction targets. [00:25:05] Speaker E: So typically the industry can deal with requirements. [00:25:14] Speaker D: I mean, it's good industry to deal. [00:25:15] Speaker E: With requirements because everybody understands that there. [00:25:17] Speaker D: Are certain requirements at the start, and then you figure out the way to deal with them. [00:25:21] Speaker E: And it's happening in spite of the fragmentation. So the key is really that somebody. [00:25:27] Speaker D: Who can either block the project or. [00:25:29] Speaker E: Fund the project sets the targets before they engage people. [00:25:33] Speaker D: So everybody's aware that, by the way. [00:25:35] Speaker E: This is going to be what I have to do. So it's not like I have to. [00:25:39] Speaker D: Do something or I have to say nice things about sustainability at the end. [00:25:42] Speaker E: Of the project, but you actually need to hit a target. The people in the early phases of. [00:25:48] Speaker D: The project, either the city or the. [00:25:51] Speaker E: Developer or the investor, have to say it's going to be this number and not more perfect. [00:25:57] Speaker C: Okay, now, Panu, I'm just going to touch very lightly on one subject that is also very recent news for your company, but we're in fact going to dedicate a short episode to that altogether. So you've created a biodiversity net gang too. This is really exciting because we've also created a course, which is an online course that's going to be made available freely to the likes of government organizations and universities. So we have a little bit of common ground there. Just give it a very quick introduction and then we will leave it in people's minds for the next episode. The features yourself. [00:26:37] Speaker E: Yeah, so biodiversity netgain tool is basically. [00:26:42] Speaker D: A solution for the challenge imposed on the new developments in England. [00:26:47] Speaker E: So new developments in England have to improve the biodiversity as measured by BNG biodiversity net gain methodology by 10% to get a construction permit. And typically construction projects are not really nature preservation projects. You actually degrade it. [00:27:02] Speaker D: And how they deal with is that you buy the biodiversity credits from accredited. [00:27:07] Speaker E: Suppliers and they cost money. And obviously that it costs money is one thing, but doing better locally for the environment is another thing. And our BNG tool is not a. [00:27:22] Speaker D: Tool that you use to declare what. [00:27:24] Speaker E: You came out with. Yeah, you can use it for that too, but it's a tool to consider options. So what if I put my building in this way? What if I use a different pavement? [00:27:34] Speaker D: What if I use. [00:27:37] Speaker E: These trees or. [00:27:38] Speaker D: These plants, or what if I plant a hedge? [00:27:41] Speaker E: It allows you to think about all. [00:27:42] Speaker D: Of these options as part of holistic design, because obviously, especially the vegetation and. [00:27:48] Speaker E: Those things, they do have an impact on people's well being and microclimate and. [00:27:52] Speaker D: Other things as too. [00:27:53] Speaker E: So it's trying to improve your overall. [00:27:57] Speaker D: Design to get best possible hole. [00:28:01] Speaker E: Do that again early, before you made all your choices and before you paved. [00:28:05] Speaker D: Over your whole site. [00:28:07] Speaker E: I mean, it's not very good to set a couple of plants in a pot to sit on your pavement. I mean, it doesn't do anything anymore at that point for biodiversity. [00:28:16] Speaker C: Of course not. So it's brilliant that you've given that lead into the next episode, which will go into your tool in a lot more depth and it'll be really helpful. It's the right time to make people aware that this tool exists. Panu, was there anything else you'd like to add to close our chat for today? [00:28:36] Speaker E: Well, we need a lot of people to work on this, so our goal as a company is to power 1 million people to work towards zero carbon future by 35, consisting of professionals only. [00:28:52] Speaker D: Professionals in AEC and manufacturing. [00:28:54] Speaker E: So if you're not on this journey and you're listening, so better get on it. [00:28:59] Speaker C: Excellent. Fantastic way to finish, Panu, thank you so much. It's been really, really interesting. [00:29:04] Speaker E: Thank you. [00:29:05] Speaker A: This is constructive voices. [00:29:07] Speaker F: Be a constructive voice. Very soon we will be opening a reporter program that will select specialists from around the world to write about their expert topics. All experts will also have the chance of being chosen as guests on the. [00:29:20] Speaker A: Podcast constructive voices, the podcast for the construction people with news, views and expert interviews. Views.