Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Constructive voices, the podcast for the construction people with news, views and expert interviews.
[00:00:07] Speaker B: Richard Grande here for constructive voices. We have had some superb feedback for the first episode of this four part podcast series featuring the groundbreaking author Alexandra Stead, such as so inspiring. I can't wait to hear more. This is the second episode. If you haven't listened to the first, we highly recommend that you do. Be sure to enter the book giveaway that goes along with this podcast miniseries.
And now let's dive in. Over to you, Jackie.
[00:00:37] Speaker A: Good afternoon, or good morning, depending on where you are. I am with the very lovely Alexandra Stead, who is joining us today, actually from Vancouver in Canada. And this is the second in a mini series of podcasts because she's written this amazing book that really deserves being looked into in a lot more detail. Alexandra, just a very quick introduction because we're going to encourage everybody to go back and hear the first episode if they haven't done so already.
[00:01:08] Speaker C: Hi, Jackie. Well, thank you so much for having me on your podcast again. I'm really delighted to be here and to speak to you again.
So, as you said, my name is Alexandra Stead. I'm a landscape architect. I've been working in this field for about 25 years, and I have a firm in London called Alexandra Stead, Urban. And anyway, I've recently written a book called Portrait to Landscape, a landscape strategy to reframe our future. And so it'll be great to speak to you more about that today.
[00:01:41] Speaker A: Brilliant. So once again, I'm going to encourage any listeners who didn't hear the first episode, please go back, because all of the foundational information is there and lots of pearls of wisdom as well. So let's just jump into the next part of the book, and you have this really poignant quote from Rachel Carson there, Alexandra, let's explore that.
[00:02:01] Speaker C: Right. Well, can I start by reading out the quotes?
[00:02:05] Speaker A: Please do. Yes. That'd be brilliant.
[00:02:07] Speaker C: It says, we stand now where two roads diverge. But unlike the roads in Robert Frost's familiar poem, they are not equally fair. The road we have long been traveling is deceptively easy, a smooth superhighway on which we progress with great speed. But at its end lies disaster.
The other fork of the road, the one less traveled by, offers our last, our only chance to reach a destination that assures the preservation of the earth. The choice, after all, is ours to make. Rachel Carson.
[00:02:45] Speaker A: Okay, that's. Yeah, it's a very, very important quote. And for those people who don't know who Rachel Carson is, would you like to inform them who she is, first of all, because obviously she's hugely important in this field.
[00:03:01] Speaker C: Yes. Well, Rachel Carson is an amazing woman, really. She, I think most people will know her by her book Silent Spring. And this quote is actually from that book Silent Spring that she wrote back. I think it was in about 1960, about that era. And anyway, she, she was an ecologist. She was working in the field, and she saw a lot of data that showed just how dangerous DDT was. And yet in those days, it was being used significantly, significantly across all sorts of landscapes to deal with pests. And what they were finding and seeing and observing over time was that not only was the DDT attacking the pests, but it was attacking all sorts of wildlife and killing, you know, all sorts of birds. And so anyway, this is where this concept of the silent spring came up, that the idea that one day we might not have birdsong and how awful would that be? So anyway, she was really letting people know. She thought, I need to let the public know what is going on and what these disastrous effects might be. And it was really amazing what happened when she did. So.
You know, of course, all of the people in the industry then started attacking her and her character, calling her a Luddite, calling her a hysterical woman, you know, discrediting, discrediting her in any way they could.
But at the same time, a whole environmental movement kind of sprung up that was all around this idea that we need to protect nature. We need to be looking at how we are behaving within landscapes. We need to be looking at these pesticides, these fertilizers, other pollutants that are going into the environment. So, anyway, her book Silent Spring really spurred on this whole movement. And I think that this quote that I read is especially poignant in that it's as relevant today. It's more relevant today than it even was when she wrote this, that we are now at a fork in the road. And we know all of this. We know all of the environmental issues that have been created by our own actions and human activity on the planet. We have all the data. We can see where it's leading us. And so the choice is ours to make. Do we just carry on that road, carry on with business as usual, or do we choose another way that is more collaborative with nature and that is about restoring the earth and restoring our relationship to the earth? So I think that's probably a great way to start this episode. So thank you for asking me to read out that quote.
[00:06:02] Speaker A: Brilliant. Yes. And, I mean, we're only depending on exactly what year she wrote that book, you know, we're only, we'll say 50, 60 years on from there, and we are at this huge fork on the road. There's no doubt about it. Each, each day there's more horrific news coming out into the newspapers at the time of recording, and that's May 2024. Now, going back to your own book, how do you perceive what you call the current landscape?
[00:06:30] Speaker C: Well, the current landscape, I think.
I find landscape so interesting because I see it as the location of where nature and culture come together. So everything that we believe about our relationship with nature is manifest in the landscape. So the landscape is this physical expression of everything that we sort of believe about ourselves and how we interact with nature. We believe about that relationship with nature. So it's this physical expression, which is quite incredible to think that there we have it before our eyes. We can look and we can see exactly sort of how humanity relates to the rest of nature through the landscape.
And, you know, what we see is these escalating issues. So with global warming and climate change and ecological collapse and population expansion, expansion at such a degree, you know, in 1850, we were at 1.5 billion. In 1950, we are at 2.5 billion. Now we're at 8 billion people. And it's not just. It's not just the effects of the numbers of people, but.
But about how we have expanded our exploitation of the landscapes. So we have a huge footprint, even though we're 8 billion people. And maybe, you know, the planet can hold 8 billion people, obviously. But it's the way then that we consume and extract from landscapes worldwide.
And we draw on so much space. Each of us has such a large footprint now that the exploitation of the world's resources is massive. So, anyway, we're at a place now we're seeing huge amounts of weather events. I think it's something like in the last five decades, the number of weather related disasters has increased five fold.
And this is to do with climate change and global warming. So we're seeing events like this all over the world. I'm in Canada currently, and here in 2021, I don't know if you remember, there was an event called the heat dome. And.
Yeah. So here in Vancouver, it's normally a very temperate region, very mild, very comfortable, and yet in this particular summer, there were temperatures of 49.6 degrees celsius. And it was so hot that there's a town a couple hours away from where I am here, where it was consumed by a wildfire fire. The whole town was just consumed, and it led to 600 deaths of people, 650,000 farm animals and a billion seashore animals, not including all the damage to plant life and ecosystems and infrastructure and properties. The damage is incredible. And that's just one example of the many, many around the world.
Yes, we're seeing evidence of it. I think all of us now are impacted by climate change. I don't think any of us have escaped the impacts, and we're seeing these more and more. So, yes, it's a huge concern.
[00:10:00] Speaker A: It's a huge concern. I read today because, of course, we're in different time zones in the Guardian newspaper that the temperatures. And once again, it's May, May 30, 2024, in Delhi, went up to 50 degrees in Mayenne Celsius. Like, it's just unbelievable. Obviously, obviously in, in your book, you know, there's a. There's a path, there's a very logical way to how you're addressing the issues. What is the landscape that you have laid out that you feel can deal with climate change?
[00:10:36] Speaker C: Right. Well, there's not. I wouldn't say there's a particular type of landscape.
I would say that we need to restore landscapes of all types across the entire globe.
So, you know, for example, woodlands, forests, grasslands. I think that most people are aware now of their incredible value and their incredible benefits. There is a term that's often used in my industry and sort of in the development industry of ecosystem services. And I think that's a very sort of scientific way, or maybe a more economic way of considering these incredible gifts that nature gives us.
But it is good to highlight them. I'm glad that these wonderful gifts that nature gives us freely are now being recognized. And, yes, they are termed ecosystem services, but one of the major services that they provide is capturing carbon. So this is especially important for us to be thinking about the way that forests, woodlands, grasslands actually have the capability of sequestering carbon and storing it, storing carbon dioxide and plants able to absorb it through photosynthesis. So, you know, this is this wonderful service that nature provides. But I think what most people don't realize is that actually, it's not just trees, it's also our soils. It's the oceans of the world that are able to actually sequester huge amounts of carbon dioxide. In fact, the oceans have been so amazing at capturing excess heat from the atmosphere over the last few decades that we hadn't really noticed the warming of the planet because it was so effective at capturing that excess heat. And likewise, soils, about a quarter of all carbon emissions each year, are captured by soils. So this again highlights the importance not just of trees, but of all types of landscapes and the health of all ecosystems. So, you know, looking at all types of land and looking at the soils, the water, the air, the plants, all of these things are vital in terms of the services that they provide for us, including carbon capture.
[00:13:23] Speaker A: A quick point. The soils that are so full of all sorts of fertilizers and chemicals, you know, how does that work? Surely that diminishes their ability.
[00:13:32] Speaker C: Oh, it does. So much, yes. I mean, soils have been treated terribly and unfortunately through urbanization and through industrialization and expansive agriculture. Industrial agriculture has had a huge impact on our soil worldwide, you know, through.
As soon as you start to prepare an area for agriculture, what you find is that oftentimes it's forests or woodlands or other types of landscapes that are cleared. So suddenly you make a land that had beautiful cover and growth on it. Suddenly it's barren. So you've lost all of that stability. And then it's the tilling activity, the introduction, as you say, of fertilizers, of pesticides. All of these things radically change the makeup of the soil and make it very vulnerable to erosion. So, for example, even, I don't know if you recall the dust bowl in the United States that was so legendary, where it was, gosh, I think it was kind of early, 19 hundreds. I think it was around the time of the Great Depression, actually. And what they found there was because of this widespread change of grasslands into farmland, that they had this effect of the soil being swept away by the wind and it caused, you know, it led to famine and it was awful. So, you know, these types of things, that's just one example. But that's happening around the world at a greater and greater rate as more and more of our forests and woodlands and grasslands are being transitioned into industrial agriculture sites. So those soils are in terrible. In a terrible state, and they should be living and vital places, you know, filled with all sorts of organisms, as you say. But what we find is they're, you know, they're sort of these dead places. All of their fertility is being removed.
[00:15:42] Speaker A: It's very, very sad.
Moving on to some of the heroes, I suppose, of carbon capture. What are carbonous sinks for those people who don't know?
[00:15:53] Speaker C: Right. Well, carbon sinks are landscapes that have the ability to sequester vast amounts of carbon dioxide from the air.
So when we're talking about carbon sinks, I think people are often referring to forests that, you know, most often it's trees that people are talking about as a carbon sink. So they have great ability to pull in sequester and then store carbon through photosynthesis and that would be the same. So there's other also very resilient and absorptive ecosystems that include. So places like tundra, they're often not really considered in terms of their capacity to be a carbon sink, but they are wonderful that way. Seagrass meadows, mangrove forests, salt marshes, all of these places, these are, these ocean ecosystems as well, have an amazing capacity in that way. So oftentimes it's referred to as blue carbon. So carbon captured by ocean ecosystems and these areas actually sequester carbon at a faster rate than forests.
So that's a wonderful capability too.
You know, areas like marshlands and estuaries that are often found in our coastal regions are incredibly important. These transition zones have huge capacity for carbon capture, but more than that, I mean, they also provide food, they provide significant habitats for bird life and other wildlife. You know, they're just teeming with life, these places. So not only do they have this effect of sequestering carbon, but they have many, many other wonderful effects as well.
[00:17:48] Speaker A: And I guess thinking about, I mean, I absolutely love those types of places, but thinking about like an average human, oh, that's kind of an annoying place because it's like boggy and awkward to walk around, you know, because we just don't see it, of course, at least traditionally we didn't see it as what are the, what is the ecological value here? You know, what's happening here? So I think that's like something.
[00:18:10] Speaker C: Yeah, and I think that's a really excellent point because we've had so many of the world, cities are located within estuaries and all of these estuaries have these types of environments, whether it be mangroves or sea grasses or marshlands.
All of these have been destroyed, you know, in the last couple of centuries. Well, and even longer being converted to urban areas or industrial areas or farmland because they also make very good farmland. They're so rich, there's so much nourishment in those soils. So we've lost huge, huge areas. For example, there's one area we've been working in just east of London called Essex, and in that area they used to have 30,000 marshlands. Now there's only 2500 ha left. And so much of that area, as you say, has been used as landfill, it's been used as port, it's been used for other industry. And because, as you say, people didn't value it, you know, sort of all the, all the more dirty industry, you might call it, was pushed into those areas. And so it's been filled with waste and all sorts of other horrible things. And now people are starting to recognize, oh, actually, not only do these areas improve ecosystems, filter water, you know, improve the quality of our water again for free, they act as an absorptive cushion. When storm surges come into the estuary, they allow for sea level rise naturally, and they're able to kind of soften the impact of wave action. So not only do they provide sort of these software services, but they're protecting our properties and our industry and all of our infrastructure. So they actually have this incredible value that nobody had really considered before. Now we're starting to see it, and we're starting to see the effects of the loss of those areas, definitely.
[00:20:21] Speaker A: Now, I think it's obviously something quite depressing, but unfortunately, it's the reality. Let's explore ecological collapse and human induced triggers. Alexandra.
[00:20:34] Speaker C: Yes, well, I mean, ecological collapse may be even more significant than climate change. So this is what the scientists are now telling us. There's been so much focus on climate change now, I think people are starting to realize that ecological collapse is right up there also being pushed to the limit.
And many people say that we're now in the 6th mass extinction on the planet, the last one being when the dinosaurs were exterminated by an asteroid that hit the planet. Now, it's not anything like alien or external forces like that. Now it's our own impact, it's human impact that is causing this. And so we're seeing the decline of biodiversity, erosion of habitats, extinction of wildlife. And these things are all happening at an alarming rate, much faster than people had realized. There's been a recent report by the intergovernmental science policy platform on biodiversity and ecosystem services. So that's quite a mouthful. But this is an organization that is very credible.
It's had about 140 nations come together, all bringing and sharing their data with each other about biodiversity in their own countries. And it's showing that across the globe. It's quite a dire situation everywhere. Some places worse than others, but everywhere is being hit. And in terms of the human induced triggers, I mean, so as I said, humanity is the biggest threat to biodiversity now, but some of the leading causes there are changes in land and sea use. That's probably the biggest one is how we're actually transforming our landscapes. So things like agriculture, the huge expansion of agriculture, logging, mining, urbanization, industrialization, all of these things, and kind of the rate at which they're occurring now, which were transforming landscapes from natural ecosystems into these is causing huge devastation.
[00:22:53] Speaker A: Let me interject, because this is what humans call progress.
[00:22:57] Speaker C: Yes, good point. Yes. And often without any thought to the consequences that it's having. Yes, yeah, very good point. And then, of course, there's other things like species over exploitation. So that would include things like commercial fishing, which is happening all over the world in our ocean, and not really being regulated. You know, it's amazing how much of fishing and other activity in the oceans is completely unregulated.
There's invasive species and disease. This is also a huge problem because of the way we're now traveling from country to country, and we're often then introducing new disease and pests when we're. When we're moving like that. So they're very disruptive. Pollution, things like oil spills, microplastics, these all have a devastating effect. And then, of course, climate change in that. So that also affects biodiversity, because it starts to alter.
It alters climate and weather, and so it starts to change seasons when they occur. It has effects on other wildlife's migration and reproduction. So there's all these downstream effects that one might not consider originally, but even climate change has a huge effect on ecological collapse, so they're all interrelated. Whatever is happening within the environment will have cascading effects.
[00:24:33] Speaker A: Everything is linked into the logical sequence of your book. Alexander, who is Johann Rockstrom?
[00:24:42] Speaker C: Right, well, Johann Rockstrom is the former director of the Stockholm Resilience center. And so this is a center that was looking to explore what the limits of the planet are in terms of a safe operating space for humanity.
So there at the resilience center, Johann Rockstrom brought together a team of 28 scientists to study together what this safe operating space for humanity would be. And they were looking for non negotiable planetary boundaries. So all from their different perspectives, with different areas of expertise, what they found was that there's nine planetary boundaries. They have identified nine planetary boundaries, and I'll just read them out now. So they are, number one, climate change. Two, biosphere integrity. Three, nitrogen and phosphorus flows. Four, stratospheric ozone depletion. Five, ocean acidification. Six, freshwater use. Seven, land system change, as we were just talking about, eight, novel entities and chemical pollution, and nine is atmospheric aerosol loading. So they've got a really interesting diagram. You should look it up on the Stockholm Resilience center website. I would suggest that to anybody, because they have it in a nice diagram showing a sphere with a safe operating space for humanity, and then it shows where we currently are within each of those nine categories. And unfortunately, what we see is that we've already transgressed the boundaries of many of those categories.
So things like the biosphere integrity, as they call it, so that would be biodiversity and things like climate change. Of course, we've already transgressed those boundaries. And what they have also found is that you cannot consider each one of these categories in isolation. When one exceeds its limits, it has consequences on other areas. And because the earth is sort of one living system and everything is interconnected, of course this would be the case. So, for example, I would say each of these have cascading effects. And one example that I think many people are now aware of is the loss of polar sea ice.
If we look at the cascading effects of that one example, we can see that climate change is causing the loss of polar sea ice, which leads to rising sea levels, coastal erosion, loss of habitats, decline of arctic wildlife, lower fish populations and more extreme weather events and thawing of permafrost. Now, those are just some of the effects, but you can see how everything is interconnected by that one example.
They also know that climate change and biosphere integrity are probably the two most important indicators, and we've already transgressed those boundaries. So, you know, things are accelerating. And what they also caution is that there may be a point where things become irreversible and that may also cause sudden catastrophic effects. So, you know, things may seem sort of okay and moderate right now, even though we've transgressed those boundaries. But suddenly something might hit and everything might change. So it's a very cautionary tale, really, that we are now in these times, and we need to act now to bring about change before it's too late.
[00:29:00] Speaker A: Quite scary, obviously, to say the very least. Now, I'm guessing a lot of people who are nothing, you know, trained in certain. In certain genres wouldn't have heard necessarily of those, but lots of people would be aware of the UN's 17 sustainable development goals. And when you think about it, it's only just like about a decade or so of work has been done on these. But where are we with these even?
[00:29:25] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I think. I think those were put in place in 2019. And so actually, you know, it was meant to be these sdgs. There was a big push that these would be achieved by 2030. So it was called the decade of action that the UN put in place for the sustainable development goals. And they called it the decade of action. Knowing these things, like, for example, knowing about the planetary boundaries and where we sat there knowing that we had to make transformative, you know, transformative change right now. But even before COVID the sdgs were following behind schedule, you know, in terms of countries implementing policies and legislation that would bring about these sustainable development goals.
And so even before COVID it was falling behind. During COVID it got much worse. So now we're way behind schedule, really. So it's not looking terribly good.
Not looking terribly good. But what we do know is that this could. You know, this could be a revolutionary time if we're able to achieve these sustainability targets. If not, it could be a very tragic time.
So it's probably one of the most important eras that we've ever seen in human history and the choices that we now are facing.
[00:30:56] Speaker A: So, yes, that leads us on very nicely, Alexandra, to you describing the cultural landscape that you refer to in your book.
[00:31:07] Speaker C: Yes, well, so the cultural landscape. I wrote this section of the book to help us understand and even to help myself understand how we got to this point. You know, how. How did we get to a place of climate change and ecological collapse, especially so quickly? So, you know, things have just changed so radically in the last 50 to 70 years, since 1950, it's been enormous, the escalation and acceleration of all of these environmental changes. So, anyway, I think it's a. An extremely complicated question in my book, I just skim the surface of how we got to this point. But I would say that, you know, our generation has inherited a world with a dysfunctional relationship to nature. You know, I think we were born into that. And it's a relationship that's characterized by dominance, by exploitation, arrogance, and ignorance. At the same time, for all other life forms and even within human society, there's so much disparity and inequality and inequity.
[00:32:26] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:32:28] Speaker C: So the human impact is so intensive and extensive that we now have created the next era of the anthropocene. You know, so. So in years gone by, we would have. And other geological eras. It was great natural forces that brought a new era into being. Now we're looking at human activity being this force. It's such a significant and influential force on the planet that we've now come into a new era. And anthropocene actually means the recent age of man. So I think that's quite. Quite interesting. And so, really, it's been since the 1950s, as I was saying, that there's been this exponential and unprecedented rise in human impact on the environment that's been indicated by so many different factors, such as world population, energy use, water use, greenhouse gas emissions, biodiversity loss, all of these things show us the same upturn. So if you look at them on a graph from 1950 to now, they all have the same swooping up starting at about 1950. And previous to 1950, things were pretty level. You know, we were just kind of bouncing along. And then suddenly at 1950, our impact, you know, it's like this. They call it the hockey stick curve, and it just keeps accelerating.
So that is what we're experiencing, and that's why there's just been such great change in the last 50 to 70 years.
[00:34:22] Speaker A: I think that, yeah, that's obviously like a huge period of change, but how did we actually arrive to this place of man versus nature, you know? And what, what does it mean, do you think?
[00:34:34] Speaker C: Yeah, right.
Well, I think that this has been an idea that has been with us for ages. You know, when I was researching the book, I found so many ideas in philosophy, in religion, in the scientific world that have always presented this notion of human dominance over nature. So I have a couple of quotes here that are quite interesting. So, for example, Aristotle wrote, nature has made all things specifically for the sake of man. Thus the value of non human things is merely instrumental, you know, or Descartes says, the masters and possessors of nature. That's how he refers to humans. Or Bacon said, let the human race recover that right over nature which belongs to it by divine bequest.
[00:35:34] Speaker A: Yes, they're all quotes from your book. And I was so. I was actually so scared from her brother when I read them. I was like, my God, you know, these, such huge names. Of course, yes. And that's absolutely ingrained in us.
[00:35:49] Speaker C: Exactly. You know, so influential in all of those ideas, all of those ideologies, then have. Have guided our scientific thoughts, our philosophic, our philosophies, our religions. You know, all of these ideas are completely ingrained. So, as I said earlier, we've been born into this dysfunction. Well, which I believe is a dysfunction, that we are not part of nature but separate from it. And not just separate, but believing that we're not separate and complementary and separate, but equal, but separate and dominant and better than, and supreme over everything else. So that is entirely ingrained in us, in every system that we have in our economics, you know, in our. In everything, you know. And yesterday, or on our other episode, on the first episode, we were talking about how our ethics don't even extend to the land. So we talk only about ethics in terms of relationships with other people. But because of this idea of dominance over nature, we haven't even thought it necessary to have any sort of ethic around how we relate to nature. So, you know, I'd say there's other societies, there's other religions and philosophies around the world and throughout the ages that have had other ideas, this has not been the only idea of humans versus nature. So, for example, the chinese philosophical concept of yin and yang, that very much shows sort of black and white, but how they're interconnected, so opposing forces that need each other and that only sort of hang together when they're seen in unity.
And so that is the kind of expression, I think, that we now need to be working towards understanding that.
Understanding that humans and natures, while there may be some difference between us, you know, there's always the recognition as your. As yourself as an individual, but also yourself as part of a much larger whole. And so those two things must always be kept in mind.
[00:38:15] Speaker A: Sure. And thinking about Native Americans, I know that's a very sweeping sort of a statement. Obviously there's many different tribes, but they refer to father sky and mother Earth. You know, it's just so integral, isn't it?
[00:38:27] Speaker C: Exactly, yeah. So, you know, we could be looking to many indigenous populations around the world. There's so many other ways of looking at the world. But in western philosophical thought, we've definitely been led by. By a very dualistic approach.
[00:38:43] Speaker A: Sure, I'm thinking that we're really important and we're supreme over all the other beings on the earth, but thinking about it, and your book highlights this extremely well, we were at one stage actually quite an insignificant species, were we not?
[00:38:58] Speaker C: Well, that's right. You know, so, I mean, if you consider the lifespan of planet Earth, and I read somewhere, you know, if you considered it as a twelve hour clock, humans only appear in the final few seconds. So even in terms of the history of the planet, we're very insignificant. We're just kind of a blip at the end. And, you know, for most of human history, humans were insignificant. They were just like any other life form on the planet, with a very light footprint.
And I think it was Carl Jung said that primitive man did not see himself as the lord of creation and that actually the zoological classification ended at the elephant, not with man in their sort of schema of the world. So, you know, it's only quite recently that we've had this perspective and that we've had this role of being sort of the dominant life form on the planet.
So, you know, I'd say that considering climate change and biodiversity is really important in this whole history of humankind as well, because it's only because of stable climatic conditions and because of the rich biodiversity and ecosystems around us that has allowed for human progress and development in the more recent years. So when I say recent years, I'm talking sort of like 12,000. So that's when the Holocene epic came into being and this introduced a very stable, moderate climate, and it allowed then for the agricultural revolution to happen. So rather than, you know, constantly being on the move and having to adapt to. To different weather systems and climate systems, now humankind could kind of stay put and start to work the land. And that was only possible because of stable seasons and climate.
So all of that progress that we have seen, you know, that what we've seen with humans now becoming sort of the lord of creation, as.
As bacon, I think, said, that's only been possible because of these wonderful climatic conditions and the richness of biodiversity around us.
[00:41:48] Speaker A: It's pretty ironic if you think of it, isn't it?
[00:41:50] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:41:54] Speaker A: Anyhow, going on to the next part of your book, what is Maslow's theory of motivation?
[00:42:03] Speaker C: Right. Well, I mentioned Maslow's theory of motivation because, well, just. Just going back to the idea that we were speaking about, that advancement in an individual and in society can really only happen when basic physiological and safety needs are met. So when I was researching about the history of humankind, that it made me think of Maslow's theory of motivation, because I thought, oh, yeah, well, this is, you know, I think he talks about it more on an individual level, but I could see then how that was connected to society at a much greater level. And that because of the stable climatic conditions and the richness of biodiversity that met all of humanity's needs, it provided safe environment. And we, you know, we were able to access food and fresh water easily. We are able to, you know, have shelter to protect us. And once those things are done, once those needs are met, then an individual or society is able to advance with that as a foundation. You know, if you're constantly wondering, oh, where am I going to get my next meal from? Or if every attempt you make to develop something as thwarted and ruined by a storm, or, you know, all these other natural forces as had happened in the millennias before, then of course, you aren't able to advance. But because we have enjoyed these wonderful, stable conditions, it's allowed humanity to advance and to transcendental. So that is why I brought up that theory of motivation, to show that it's only because of this wonderful holocene period that has allowed that to happen, that's allowed human advancement. And actually, scientists have estimated that this Holocene period would probably have gone on for about another 50,000 years. That's the estimate that it would have just carried on for quite some time.
But because of human impact, that is now coming to an end, and we're starting to see the transition now.
[00:44:23] Speaker A: And within human impact, going back to something, picking up on something you said earlier on, which is, you know, the superiority, even within human society itself, obviously different, you know, for all sorts of different reasons. It's a bit similar with the theory of motivation, because you would be an exception, I would be an exception, and I know plenty of other people who are, but lots of people are purely, just barely getting by within the society that we created, if they're getting by at all. And that means that they're not actually evolving as human beings themselves, because they have to get up in the morning and go to a job that they hate to bring home the money to survive in this society now.
[00:45:05] Speaker C: Yes, well, it's true. I mean, and. And the disparity on the planet is growing.
Recently, we've seen huge disparity, especially after Covid, that really created more extreme inequality across the globe. Now we have this situation where just 1% is now in control of so much land and wealth, and the rest of the population has very little. You know, most. Most of the world's population doesn't have any access to their own land or ability to grow food and that sort of thing. So we're living in a world now with extreme inequity and inequality.
[00:45:52] Speaker A: Which brings us on to discussing Kate Raworth's donut model, which I know is quite famous. But, of course, you featured it in your book, so be great to get your take on it.
[00:46:03] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I think it hangs so nicely with the planetary boundaries because, of course, the economist Kate Rayworth, who we're speaking of, incorporated those planetary boundaries into a new economic model. So she's a british economist, and I think she was quite frustrated with what she was seeing in the world of economics that it was so narrowly focused, you know, the constant fixation on GDP that this being the only indicator of success as a nation. And, you know, it's just such a blunt, narrow lens to look through when you consider the richness of life. So she was seeking a more sustainable approach that, similar to Johann Rockstrom, I think she was looking through her economic model to meet the needs of all people while respecting the limits of the planet.
So she brought together the UN's sustainable development goals and indicators and then layered those in rings with the planetary boundaries. So it's called. Called the doughnut model of economics because it has these two rings, and then in between the two rings is this safe and just space for humanity to sit within that.
So it shows, I think the richness of this model shows that human prosperity and ecological health go hand in hand. They can't really be considered in isolation. All of our economics, all of our economic structures are really based on nature and on natural resources. So fresh water, mining, fishing, all of these things, timber, logging, they're all based on natural resources. And so to consider it without considering nature is crazy. You know, it's insanity, really.
[00:48:16] Speaker A: It is. It is. So, yeah. What is the earth democracy?
[00:48:22] Speaker C: Well, that's an idea I think is also closely linked with some of these others. So Earth democracy is a concept that was put forward by. She's sort of an environmental rock star, I would say, but also a philosopher, an author. She's an incredible woman named Vandana Shiva. And so she's an indian scholar that coined the term earth democracy to describe the concept of an earth family.
And so it's quite similar, I would say, to Aldo Leopold's concept of a land ethic where all beings are considered and all living beings have equal rights to sustenance through the gifts of the earth. So she is really advocating for the rights of all living beings, that we're all Earth's inhabitants and that economy, environment and people all must be considered in equal measure.
So, actually, in both of their books, in Kate Rayward's book and in one of the books that I read by Vandana Shiva, they were both talking about.
About the etymology of the word economics and ecology, they actually have. Well, they're both eco, aren't they? So that's from the greek oikos, which means household.
And so it's just, it's so interesting how their beginnings were definitely very compatible. You know, they came from the same root. Nowadays, we don't really think of them that way. We don't think of ecology sort of in the same category as economics, but they are so interdependent and so linked. And so to think about, you know, that household concept that we're caring for this household and that all living beings are residents on this planet and all need care and nurturing.
[00:50:35] Speaker A: Fantastic. Now, we've had a brilliant chat this episode, so we will finish it up because we're logically following the planning of your book. So we will remind people that this is only the second episode in the series, and so please do listen to the first and the other ones afterwards. And we're just going to finish up on what is the grandest landscape.
[00:50:59] Speaker C: All right, well, I, I finished up this part of the book with, I would like to call it sort of a pause just to consider the, the magnificence of this world within which we reside. You know, we are so fortunate to be here inhabiting this planet. It's really the only place of life known, you know, within our solar system or galaxy or universe. We don't know of any other place that can support humanity or life in general, and here we are. And, you know, this landscape that envelops the globe is called the biosphere when it's considered as one in totality. And that biosphere is made up of all places of life, all known locations of life. So it includes the water, the land, the air, but it only is about 20 km in depth. And when you consider that, you know, the cross section, if you were to slice the globe, is about 12,000, is where all life exists, not just here, but anywhere in the universe. It's pretty amazing. And it makes you realize how vulnerable, how precious the biosphere is and how each one of the landscapes that makes up that precious biosphere, they're all important and they're all linked. I like to think of it as a tapestry.
And, you know, how each one of these magnificent landscapes has its own role to play and its own part that's so important to the integrity of the whole. So like a tapestry, you know, the whole tapestry hangs together, but if you imagine that one thread is pulled out of that tapestry, it can start to unravel the whole thing. And I think that's, that's quite a nice metaphor to think about the earth. We have to be protecting and caring for each one of the threads, each one of our landscapes, because it is important to the integrity of the whole. So wherever you are, you know, wherever you live, that landscape is important and it needs your care.
[00:53:25] Speaker A: That's absolutely brilliant, and it's an excellent way to end this particular episode. It's a great takeaway thought for all the people who are listening or watching to take away with them and just ponder. And hopefully when they're encountering their landscape, it'll come back into their consciousness and encourage them to do the right thing.
[00:53:48] Speaker C: Well, it's been a joy speaking to you. You too was absolutely loved it.
[00:53:54] Speaker A: It's really, you know, interesting. Each episode, I think, is, is just getting deeper and deeper into the issues that you deal with in your book. And, you know, just feel like that by exploring it this way. There's so many, yeah. There's so many different threads to the top, to the tapestry coming through. Yeah.
So thank you very much.
[00:54:17] Speaker C: Thank you, Jackie.
[00:54:20] Speaker A: This Jackie for the construction people with news, views and expert interviews.
