Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Constructive voices, the podcast for the construction people with news, views and expert interviews.
Good morning. Or good afternoon, depending where you are. And this is Jacqui Deberka here from constructive voices, bringing to you the very final installment of this wonderful series with the amazing author Alexandra Stead. At this stage, I'm hoping most of you listen to the other episodes, but just for those who dive in at the end, for whatever reason, can you introduce yourself very, very briefly, Lexie?
[00:00:35] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. Thanks so much for having me, Jackie. So my name is Alexandra Stead. I have a landscape architecture practice in London called Alexandra Stead Urban, and I've been working in the field for about 25 years and recently written this book that we get to talk about one final time today.
[00:00:53] Speaker A: Fantastic. So listen, we're going to dive in straight away to one of your amazing quotes, and this one is because we're on the very final part four of the book. Okay. And this one is Nick Estes, who said, land is power, land is wealth, and more importantly, land is about race and class. Now, this really leads us very nicely into the current situation about land ownership and really how this needs to change. What are your ideas on this?
[00:01:27] Speaker B: Well, yes, I thought it was really important to discuss the topic of land ownership, because if we don't understand who owns the land, then of course, we can't really understand how we can go about transforming our land practices and our land management and our land stewardship. So I thought, well, that's a really important way to start this final section of the book.
And so, you know, I really didn't know, when I went about writing this book, I didn't really have a good idea of who did own most of the world land. I had some idea, you know, I knew that there were big landowners such as King Charles and the royal family, and they do own, actually, one 6th of the world's land. So they are the world's largest landowner. But, you know, it's not. I know. Isn't that incredible?
[00:02:16] Speaker A: Amazing, yeah.
[00:02:18] Speaker B: And what I found was that it's not just the royal family, and it's not unusual for one man, I'll say, man, because it tends to be within men's ownership, not women's, you know, for the most part.
But it's not unusual for one man to own as much as an entire nation, for example, of indigenous peoples, let's say. So the quote that you read out by Nick Estes just a moment ago, his tribe. So he's part of the lower Broulei Sioux tribe in America. And take, for example, Bill Gates. Bill Gates owns twice as much land as that tribe, that nation of people. So that sort of situation is not unusual. And we find that billionaires like Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Ted Turner, they all have these large land owning holdings. And it's for good reason, because, of course, land is typically where most of the wealth of our world is tied up. And you also get so many benefits.
You have opportunities to evade taxes, for instance, as many of these billionaires do. So, you know, what I found was that things really haven't changed much over the centuries. And even for 10,000 years, apparently, land ownership has been concentrated in the top 1% of society.
And this has not changed. In fact, we're still sort of living within a feudalism system of land ownership and medieval forms of land ownership. So again, that was quite surprising to me, that most of the world, I think it's about 85% of the world, is still managed in that way. The world's land is managed in that way. So, you know, and unfortunately, these mega landowners typically don't have any connection to or closeness with the land that they own. I mean, how could they with that kind of land holding?
So most of the practices that we've seen include extraction and exploitation and destruction of the land, not investing back into the land to make it healthier and to restore it. No, it's typically the reverse, as we've talked about over the last few episodes.
So, anyway, it's these destructive land practices like deforestation and mining, industrial agriculture, that has really spoiled the world's lands. And so we really need to think about, you know, we need to be having the discussions and talk about how then we must hold these landowners accountable for.
For how they are treating the land and to start giving back to the land that is created, their immense wealth. It is only because of nature that they have achieved the financial success that they have.
And, you know, but these conversations just tend not to happen. So conversations about enforcing taxation of billionaires, it just doesn't really come up. You know, in forums like the World Economic Forum in Davos. It's not even mentioned. And yet, how can. How can we be talking about global financial issues without talking about the fact that the world's wealthiest people are often evading taxes?
So, you know, it's been proven that just if we could collect, say, 2% from the top 1% of wealthy people on this planet, that would probably be enough to correct climate change and to reverse climate change and to start to restore the lands.
[00:06:35] Speaker A: Sure. And it shouldn't be that painful for them, you would have thought, no, I.
[00:06:40] Speaker B: Mean, this is a small amount. You know, it's interesting, Brazil recently, I don't know if you've seen it in the news. I just saw it. I think it was in the Guardian just last week that Brazil is now calling for billionaires and multimillionaires to be taxed, to have this wealth tax imposed on them. And they're calling for other world leaders to do the same because their money, you know, doesn't really sit within one country the way they keep money. You know, it is sort of diversified globally. So it has to be a global effort, really, to start making these billionaires accountable and starting to pay for the damages that they've created globally.
[00:07:33] Speaker A: Absolutely. So, so much could be done, obviously, with, you know, what, what to a normal person is not a huge percentage of such wealth. And one of the topics you also touch on is humble governance. Now, how would this help?
[00:07:49] Speaker B: Well, humble governance, I I called the next chapter humble governance, and that was actually taken from a line that, although Leopold uses. So I don't know if you recall, we spoke about him maybe one or two episodes ago, and he came up with the land ethic, and he also talks about intelligent humility, you know, so understanding our place in the world, understanding that we are just one of many. And that is, it's incredibly important for us to recognize that we are entirely dependent on the earth that sustains us. And so with that understanding, with that wisdom, I would call it even rather than intelligence, is understanding that therefore, we must govern Yemenite in such a way that recognizes our humble place within the order of things, and that we are completely dependent on the soil and the water and the air around us and our plants and the wonderful wildlife and biodiversity that exists on this planet.
So that's why I've called it humble governance, that we must completely transform our way of thinking about how we inhabit this earth, about how we relate to and about how we then go about managing ourselves.
Another concept that we spoke about last time, about how we manage ourselves and control our own behaviors on this. Yes, absolutely.
[00:09:36] Speaker A: Absolutely. So what can Joe and Jane's citizen do then?
[00:09:44] Speaker B: Well, in terms of governance and that sort of approach, I would say that I think it's just incredibly important to be educated and to understand what is going on in the world around us so that each one of us can contribute as responsible citizens. You know, we all have to be accountable for what is going on in the world. We can't just always kind of blame the governments, although that's very easy to do, and, you know, that's completely understandable as well.
But we must then really take up the charge and get involved in advocating for the rights of nature to our governments and get involved with community initiatives and all. And there's so many ways that we can get involved. I've actually noted in the book that there's probably a few really important ways and things that we should understand in terms of worldwide land restoration. And one is protecting wilderness, and then another one would be regenerating agricultural practices. I've got these as sort of two of the highest priority actions that we can help sort of steer the world in that, in that course and towards that, well, that way of being. So, for example, protecting wilderness.
Currently we have about 17% of land that is protected and only 7% of seas.
And so the rest of the living world has no sort of protection status, and therefore it keeps being destroyed and subject to really destructive actions such as deforestation and mining and industrial agriculture. As we've spoken about, we really must get involved and help nature to have a voice, you know, because. Because nature, of course, doesn't have a voice. So we must sort of speak up for nature. And the world's conservation organizations, all of those leading conservation organizations, have come to a consensus that it's 50% of the earth's land and seas that must be protected for us to really see a transformation on this planet and to allow for rehabilitation and healing to occur. So more recently, at COP 15, they set a goal of achieving 30% protection by 2030. Now, that's an incredibly ambitious target. We're approaching 2030 very quickly, but, you know, it's a wonderful target to have, and so let's, let's hope that we can achieve that. But there's an awful lot to do within those six years, five, six years that we have left. But, you know, it's not only about protecting land that is in remote areas. We also have to think about protecting rural areas and even protecting urban areas. So, for example, I was working with a community group in south London called Grove Park Park, Grove Park Neighborhood association, and they were looking to protect a piece of land that was very important. You know, it had a natural history there that was important. It's chopped grasslands and wet woodlands and some very special ecosystems that really don't occur very often in places like London in such urban environments. So they were doing whatever they could to protect and to restore that land and to save it from development because it was under intense development pressure. So, you know, so everybody has opportunities like that. Anybody in that area. You know, we got involved as a company to support them with our professional expertise, but voluntarily, because, you know, of course, we really believe in these things. And when people rally behind these kind of projects, it's incredible what you can achieve and the kind of way that you can have with your local governments. So I'd really encourage people to, you know, to feel empowered and to realize that even in your own community, there are ways to protect nature and there are opportunities that exist there.
And another thing is to really encourage government to empower the indigenous peoples of the world, because it's incredible.
If you look at the statistics, the territories that indigenous peoples manage contain 80% of the planet's biodiversity now, and a third of global forests. So somehow, even with the small amount of land that they have been able to manage and steward, they have managed to maintain so much of the world's biodiversity within those places. And so clearly, we need to be imitating how they behave and how they interact with nature.
And really, it's even been stated by the UN that humanity cannot save our world without them. So we really need to be leaning on the indigenous peoples of the world and their knowledge and understanding and wisdom that is held within their ancient traditions and their. Their ways of relating to the land and to nature. So, for example, Canada is starting to realize this and has announced that they'll be putting a huge amount of funding into indigenous leadership for nature conservation. And I know that this is also happening in many other places around the world. It's not happening fast enough and it's not happening soon enough, and probably the funding isn't sufficient, not yet, anyway. But there are some big steps being made in that direction, which is good to see.
And then I would also say, finally, in terms of protecting wilderness, that it's also about bringing environmental protection into legislation. So not only do we have to be setting aside areas of land for complete protection, but we also must be putting in place laws and legislations that will protect lands that are being developed. So, and these laws must be enforceable. That's. That's part of the problem. There's so many issues with, for example, water companies that are just, you know, relieving all of this horrible waste into our rivers and that sort of thing.
[00:16:57] Speaker A: Just article after article keep coming at the moment.
[00:17:01] Speaker B: That's right. Yeah. So there is legislation, but they're not being held to account for their actions. It's not being enforced. So there really needs to be. Well, and it's so great that there is article after article, because now everybody is beginning to understand what's going on and how the environment has been so terribly mistreated by companies such as water companies. So, anyways, you know, we need to have targets that are. That are enforced for air and water quality, for biodiversity. We talked about the biodiversity net gain regulations in the UK recently, that. That's a wonderful one to see. We also need targets around waste, and so we need to be then moving funding from these harmful activities, and the government needs to move budgets into then really supporting more healthy and sustainable practices and endeavors. So, yeah, I mean, there's some really interesting examples around the world of what's been going on and how nature's rights are now coming to the fore.
[00:18:20] Speaker A: I know. And I have to mention, I think we're sort of. We're missing out on one particular question, but we can go back to it in a second, because you do lay out some essential measures in that part of your book that you may want to. You may want to talk about. But when you mention laws about nature, I have to say that when I was reading your book and I discovered the one that was in Ireland, my birth country, I was very happy. Do you want to talk about that one? That was very nice.
[00:18:45] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. Well, that's quite an interesting one.
In Ireland, a group has come together called the Citizens assembly on biodiversity lost, and they've called for a referendum to protect nature and enshrine nature rights into this constitution. So along with human rights, they're now calling for the rights of nature. And this is something I think we might have talked about in our second episode with Vandana Shiva, the indian environmental activist. And she has been so vocal and so important in establishing this idea of earth democracy and the idea that the whole community of life must be protected and must have a voice and must be respected.
So this is really following that kind of philosophy. And there's other countries as well, like Ecuador and Bolivia.
They've already enshrined nature's rights into their constitution. So it is happening, and it's so exciting to see that it's being taken so seriously. And there's such a citizen movement behind this because it's a. Is really sort of just local people, activists, academics.
These are the people that are really making the change happen and calling for governments to take this seriously. So it's not waiting for the governments to make the change. It's really from a ground up approach and movement that this is happening.
[00:20:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's what's happening as we're recording. And I know you're not in the UK currently are in Vancouver. But as we're recording, there's been a lot happening in the UK regarding the right wing riots. And only yesterday the other people came out to tell them what's for, which was, you know, such much more optimistic news to read over coffee this morning, I have to say. So, you know, just in the same way, it's the people having to take it into their own hands because the governments aren't reacting quickly enough. Sweeping statement, of course, some, some countries are better than others and that's what people are doing, you know.
Anyway, going back to your book, I particularly liked a quote from Ian McHarg, which is at the beginning of chapter twelve. Would you like to read that out?
[00:21:16] Speaker B: Sure. Okay. Let me just find that.
Here we go.
The world is abundant. We require only a difference born of understanding. To fulfill man's promise, he must become the steward of the biosphere. To do this, he must design with nature.
So that's Ian Mcharg. And Ian McHarg is, he's a landscape architect now, passed away, but he was actually raised in Scotland and then trained at the University of Pennsylvania and at Harvard. And he was instrumental in kind of redefining how we can approach planning and design from an ecocentric way, from a new approach that isn't only considering human aspirations and human endeavors, but also looking at how we can work with the land to provide a wonderful and robust foundation for everything that we do, that we must then understand and seek nature's counsel in everything that we do, in all our plans for growth and development.
So he has a book called Design with Nature that is very well known if you're sort of within the design realm, if you're within that industry. But even so, I would say that these days because he, I think he wrote it in the 1960s. And so that's why we see language such as man's promise rather than humans, because, you know, that that was the kind of language used in those days. We've moved on since then.
But anyway, yes, so I would say that still his work is not, not widely known in the way that it should be. It's, you know, it's kind of this legendary book. But even landscape architects in some of the universities that I teach at, for example, in London, at the Bartlett or at the University of British Columbia, I've mentioned his name a couple of times to certain students that didn't recognize his name. So anyway, this approach, this landscape led approach, it makes complete sense. And if you were to read the book, you would just see, wow, you know, why have we not been doing this? This has been known for decades, you know, this way of approaching nature, of approaching development, of approaching growth. This has been around since the 1960s, and yet we've still been doing everything backwards in terms of development. You know, we look at the building and the structures first, and then landscape comes in as an afterthought, typically, and that is just completely backwards. It's the landscape that will remain. Buildings come and go, but the land remains. And its natural processes and systems are so powerful, so great, that it's, it's crazy to ignore them, crazy to ignore things like hydrology and geology and, or to try and somehow subdue them because we want, because we want to place houses in what was formerly a wetland or what is a floodplain. And then somehow we have to create all of these infrastructures then to protect our structures and our building and infrastructure because we've wrongly cited it.
So we're doing everything backwards. We need to start with the land. We need to understand what's going on there and then move forward from there. And I think Ian Mcharg talks in his book about how landscape health and this imperative, and it must be understood before any development modifications are made. And he compares it to a doctor's practice. So he says, well, you know, it's like a doctor's practice. If you're a doctor and you don't understand your patient's anatomy or your patient's physiology or biology, and then you go about trying to help them and to heal them, well, of course that's not going to be effective, and in the end, you're going to have some sort of terrible results. I mean, that's just craziness, isn't it? To think about a doctor approaching the patient without any understanding of how their body works, and yet that's how we're approaching development, without any understanding. So Macarg was really advocating for understanding a site's physical attributes and its ecology and all these other natural processes before then trying to go about making any modifications. So I think that's quite a good analogy and one that we should all be able to grasp fairly well.
So, you know, he even goes as far as laying out all the types of landscapes that should be protected. So it's all, you know, it's all very clearly there. It's, this has been around for decades, and yet still, unfortunately, within our planning systems, we're not looking to this kind of knowledge and wisdom.
[00:27:00] Speaker A: Still, it's a shame. It's obviously such a shame and so accessible. Definitely a book for listeners to consider buying if they can, don't you think?
[00:27:15] Speaker B: Yes, definitely. Yeah. So again, it's called design with nature and you can still get it. I bought myself a copy, I think it was about three years ago. So it's definitely still available. And it's a wonderful book because there's so much in it that just lays out why it's essential that we are limiting harm to the environment in our developments, how we can do that, and then how we can sensitively cite development in areas that is appropriate. And there's plenty of those areas.
So, for example, we should not be, we should not be destroying forests or woodlands or wetlands or marshes or building within floodplains or building within areas of groundwater, aquifer recharge. You know, these are all areas that deserve our protection and that have so much ecological value and provide so many gifts of nature that it is nonsense. It's just ridiculous to destroy them, especially in today's age where we have destroyed so many of those wonderful landscapes already. So whatever we have left, we must protect. And we must also then start restoring many of those places, too, that over the last number of centuries have been destroyed. So we've spoken about returning marshland, for example, that had become farmland. Well, now that should really become marshland again to help us not only restore biodiversity, but also to act as carbon sinks to protect us from storm surges, to allow for sea level rise in a way that will protect properties. So there's so many benefits even that humans can achieve by looking to the land first and protecting these areas and being very intentional about how we cite our new developments. So anyway, you know, I just think that this is of the utmost importance and that if we carry on designing and planning and developing in a way that it is not, that's ignoring the land, we will really be imposing a lot of pain and suffering on ourselves. It's only going to get worse.
[00:29:52] Speaker A: Yeah, that's it. That's absolutely it. And now another wonderful concept that you write about in your book is urban design from a multi species perspective.
[00:30:05] Speaker B: How does that work?
[00:30:06] Speaker A: Yes, that was also like, it's all very, you know, you know what? When you digest a book for somebody like myself who isn't trained in your area, when you're first reading, it's like, my God, that's amazing. And this is amazing, but when you digest the whole thing overall, in fact, it's just very, very sensible.
[00:30:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, yes, I mean, and I think this idea looking at urban design from a multi species perspective. I think it is completely linked to, to what I was just talking about and Ian McHarg's idea of designing with nature. So it's just a really simple concept, actually. It's just about not only thinking about urban design. So when we're planning our urban developments or even our suburban developments or even, even developments that are in remote places and wilderness locations, any time that we're thinking of development and how we might be transformed forming a landscape, not only should we be thinking about it for how it functions for humans, but also how it functions for every other form of life. And it's quite a simple concept, isn't it? So when you think about, well, how will this development affect the soil? How will it affect the air? How will it affect the water of this site? How will it affect the plant communities? How will it affect the wildlife? How will it affect a bird in the sky that is looking for harbor?
There's all of these perspectives to consider, and it isn't difficult. And actually, when we design with nature, when we design with these things in mind, you will find that the result then is so much robust and so much more sustainable, because all of these things have been considered from the outset and we now have, you know, we were speaking earlier about nature not having a voice. Well, they can't communicate. You know, all these life forms aren't able to communicate in the way that humans do, obviously. So how can, how can other life forms have a voice? And I would say, well, at this point in time, we have so much data, so much understanding of the world that exists. So, for example, GIS data or satellite imagery. We have incredible mapping capabilities now that are able to identify areas of biodiversity or to understand the hydrology of a site, or to understand all the layers of soil or geology or the plant communities or the way insects are moving. And, you know, within the site, there's so, there's so much information that we hold, and actually, so what we need to do before making any changes is to understand this information together comprehensively. And then along with that, so you can layer, you know, you can layer these levels of information and then by looking at them in relationship to each other, you can then find the conflicts, you can see the synergies and the opportunities that then come out from this composite type of mapping. And then together with the communities that reside in those locations and their knowledge and understanding of those places.
Together with all of that knowledge comes a really complete picture of a place and an understanding of the way that all life forms are behaving within the place and what they all need to sustain themselves. So it is possible it isn't just a pipe dream to think, oh, well, how would we ever understand what a bird, what a bird would like to see here? Well, we do know a lot, you know, we might not know everything and we never will know everything about nature, but we have enough knowledge that we can at least limit harm and we can start to help nature to restore itself.
[00:34:31] Speaker A: Definitely, yeah. And I'm sure that, you know, in places that have been left intact, like, let's say the areas that, you know, native communities have been the people to take care of, to take care of the sites. Well, one imagines that every little insect and bird and other creatures and all the plant life is all just like. Absolutely playing the role that they're meant to. Role that they're meant to play. Excuse me, you know, don't you think?
[00:34:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yes, I completely believe that. And that's why we see that the indigenous populations of this world have been able to maintain most of the world's biodiversity because they do understand it and they're living in harmony with these other life forms. So, yeah, it's completely possible. It's entirely possible.
And I think, again, that's just, it's another example of how we can change our mindset from portrait to landscape. This is another reason why I've called the book that name, because again, it's looking at how we can change our orientation from only seeing things from a human perspective to seeing things from a landscape holistically and looking at that broad field that exists around us.
[00:35:53] Speaker A: Yeah. And we benefit in the long term or to the, in the medium to long term, I guess, you know, and right now, where the world is at the moment, if we don't do enough of it quickly, we're going to see horrible repercussions.
[00:36:06] Speaker B: Well, exactly. And that brings us back to the concept of us being part of nature. And so rather than starting to think of ourselves as separate, it isn't a human perspective or an ecocentric perspective. We are part of that landscape, we are part of, of that ecosphere. So, so when we do things for all of the landscape, we're also doing things for ourselves. It's not separate and they're one and.
[00:36:38] Speaker A: The same and we are biodiversity. Even though people, a lot of people don't think, even think about that. It's like, oh, biodiversity is kind of out there and we need to do something about it.
[00:36:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:53] Speaker A: Anyhow, what about nature and culture? Are they at ease with each other? Are they conflicting?
[00:37:00] Speaker B: Well, yes. I mean, I talk about in this chapter that nature and culture, in fact, can coexist with the protection and restoration of landscape. They're not mutually exclusive. So again, you know, we are part of nature. And so when we.
When we allow for nature's health, we're also allowing for our health, and they are completely bound up one with the other.
We talked about Alexander Pope in previous episodes, and he said that we must never let nature be forgot in all of our, in all of our plans and all of our work. And that the genius Locai really is this expression of a place, a manifestation of the uniqueness of a particular place. And that's, you know, that's involving human culture, that's involving the natural history of the place. And so these things are really very compatible and complementary. They should be supporting one another. They do not have to be in conflict. And it's only because we as humanity have set ourselves up to be in conflict with nature that we perceive it that way. You know, we need to think of nature as our friend and our ally, not, not as our enemy. And that's the way it's been approached in. Well, for so many decades, especially in the western world, that, for example, our approach to stormwater management by putting all water in culverts, by burying rivers and streams and then building these big concrete walls to protect us from storms, well, that's a very sort of violent approach, I would say, to nature to just subdue it like that. Whereas we could be looking at much softer approaches, much greener, more integrated approaches. And we've talked about some examples. I think we talked about sponge cities at the time. So that's an example of a soft approach that brings so many benefits, is more affordable economically, and is understanding that nature is our friend. You know, we can work with nature to help us deal with issues like flooding, like pollution, and at the same time, it allows for recreation and, you know, so many benefits for our own health and well being, allowing us the opportunity to get out into fresh air and to listen to the sound of wildlife and the birds all around us. It brings so many benefits when we approach the land in that kind of way as our friend and our ally.
[00:40:03] Speaker A: Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, you have seven steps that you talk about in this particular part of the book as well that are integral to strategic landscape frameworks.
Can you talk us through those?
[00:40:18] Speaker B: Sure. And, I mean, this might not be of interest to everybody, but anybody that's involved in design or planning, I think, would find this more interesting. And so what I've laid out here are seven steps that can help us work towards these more integrative and comprehensive plans for growth and development. And so the first is undertaking comprehensive geographical surveys. So that's what I was mentioning. Just having a really robust database, baseline understanding of the land on which you're working, and then this combined with analysis and assessment. So not only do you have to have that information, you then have to synthesize that information in an intelligent way. I think so often there is a big disconnect with the information available and then what is imposed on the site, there can be a big leap between that information. So a lot of people have that information, maybe choose not to look at it and just go ahead and do whatever they want to do anyway. So I'd say step two, the assessment is actually very important. Then, of course, there's collaborating with the community and engaging with the local population and any stakeholders that have knowledge of the site or, you know, expertise. All of these contributions really bring about a much more comprehensive and holistic understanding of a site and people that understand the heritage, for example, that can be so compelling, to understand how a landscape has changed over time and to bring that to the fore, to bring that story, I think, can be so important. And then, of course, there's the visioning and setting objectives. So vision is, I think, a really important one because so often, I would say, our plans are really boring and they don't capture the imagination. You know, we need to set visions for our places and our towns and our landscapes that are visionary and that excite people and that are inspirational. And again, that's entirely possible. You know, we're working with these amazing landscapes and these amazing histories and, and yet so often you end up then with this very technical document that says, okay, we're gonna put buildings there and we're gonna put a park there. Blah. That's it. But, I mean, who's gonna get excited about that? So we really need to be setting visions, having bold visions, and using beautiful illustrations to describe how these places could be, so that people aim high.
And then the next step is laying out strategic frameworks then. So then you do get into more technical work where you bring together all of that information, all of those layers of analysis, the synthesis of that information, the knowledge of the community, the vision and the objectives that work towards kind of protecting and sustaining that unique place.
And then laying out a framework plan that will ensure that that's what's delivered on site, that that kind of vision is achieved.
So planning policy and design guidelines will also support that. So once we have a strategic framework, then that can be put into our local plans to ensure that it's not ignored during the development process. And when applications come up, the planners have something at the ready that they can look at and say, well, no, we won't have a development in that location, but it would be better situated here, for example, so that they're working with an intelligence that most local planners don't have at hand currently, and then finally having management strategies in place. So management and maintenance is an area that is so often forgotten and so often not enforced. So even if something wonderful is achieved at the outset, it could be that then that sustainable development, if there's no management plan in place, the benefits can quickly be depleted. So, for example, with biodiversity net gain, research has shown that even if a net gain of 10% is achieved on a development site in terms of biodiversity, if it is not maintained properly, those benefits will be lost within a period of five years.
So we need people, especially on these more urban sites where our buildings and infrastructure are located. Biodiversity is not just kind of able to take care of itself in these intense environments. It needs to have care and stewardship. So that's not necessarily the same. You wouldn't have the same kind of management strategy for a highly urban site as a wilderness national park, for instance. They would have completely different management strategies, but it is important that they all do have some sort of strategy in place, whatever that may be. So there's a lot of guidance out there that.
Bye. Very, very interesting organizations like the International Union for Nature Conservation, they've got loads of helpful information that sets out how to manage different types of nature sites. For instance, there's a lot of policy now, there's loads of regulations and policies and best practice design guidance that will all support endeavors to manage nature in the long run. So there is a lot out there that we can look to and draw on. It just needs to be done.
[00:46:56] Speaker A: What about going back to the UK quickly? And it's probably a question you may not be able to answer. Once again, recording not long after the elections. It's not today or yesterday, but it's a recent event. So you mentioned about local planners not really being equipped with the right kind of information that you've just mentioned. Are there any, like, I don't know, natural England or any of the organizations, are they working towards achieving this at all?
[00:47:25] Speaker B: Yes, and actually one of the. So along with biodiversity net gain being a very important piece of legislation in the newer Environment act, so that was 2021. There's also nature recovery schemes.
And what is it? It's elms. Those are for rural sites, so for agricultural sites and how land is managed on those sites. So there's some really important work there being done across nature sites, nature recovery protected areas and agricultural land management.
So this just needs time now to roll out. So again, it's kind of, you know, can it be done quickly enough? Can, will there be expediency? And I'm not sure really with this new government how we will see that unfold and if they'll want to see some changes. You know, it's hard to know exactly at this point, but it does seem that the new government in the UK is very much concerned about the environment and more interested in making swift changes. So hopefully we see some good news there.
[00:48:43] Speaker A: Yes, it is, it is early days, but sort of the right kind of comments and so on have been made.
Now, moving on to one of the examples that you give in the book, I have no idea how to pronounce this. A l u l a, which is an abbreviation.
[00:49:00] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:49:00] Speaker A: Can, can you first of all tell me how to pronounce it? And second of all, talk to us about it?
[00:49:05] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. Well, it's Alula.
[00:49:09] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:49:09] Speaker B: And it is a region in Saudi Arabia. So this is a wonderful project I had the opportunity to work on. I think it started in 2019, so fairly recently, and we worked on it for a couple of years together with a large group of consultants.
So Alula is in the northwest part of Saudi Arabia. It's an area about the size of Belgium, so this region is huge. It's 76,000 sq. Mi, and it's an incredibly important site of history because the nabatean civilization actually was there many years ago. They're the same civilization that develops Petra in Jordan, with all of that incredible architecture built straight into the geology of the region. Well, they did the same thing in Alula, but it hadn't really been known and it had never really been advertised. It hadn't been made into a tourist region such as Petrae. So these wonderful architectural feats that had been achieved in this sort of internal area of Saudi Arabia hadn't been appreciated by the rest of the world. But it's really a marvel that intersects this rich ancient civilization with beautiful biodiversity and also incredible geological formations. So it's just an incredibly rich and spectacular region. So anyway, the government in Saudi Arabia decided that they wanted to make this a premier global destination for tourism and as a way of sort of diversifying the economy. So we were called in with a number of other consultants to bring about a plan. They called it a landscape framework and design guidelines that they were after that would be sort of world class in terms of sustainability and achieving all of the highest standards in terms of nature protection, in terms of any kind of urban development that went in there, any of the resorts, the protection of these amazing cultural sites. So it is a UNESCO World heritage site as well. They've achieved that status, but they wanted to make sure that any development that occurred there was done very sensitively. So that's why they wanted this framework plan developed. And on that site, working with engineers, planners, ecologists, there were specialists pretty much in every field that were called to work on this project. It was quite incredible.
And we were there to put in place the landscape framework, so to kind of pull all this information together. And so, in the end, we were able to lay out a regional plan that included 85% protected nature areas, which was incredible. So that was using a combination of national parks, nature reserves, kind of these special sites, the regeneration of an oasis and an ancient wadi corridor that had come through the region, and.
And some of the. Well, maybe I'll just let you know, some of the Alula landscape policies and strategies that we put in place, just to give you an example. So it was. It set out that ecological connectivity would be preserved, including a migratory bird strategy, that many nature conservation areas would be designated and restored for all time, that native and adaptive planting would be used to promote biodiversity. They even had wildlife management strategies that included the reintroduction of various species that had been lost over time. So, for example, the arabian leopard, the sand gazelle, the arabian oryx and ostrich, they're all now back in the region. They've already brought them back within a very short time frame.
[00:53:52] Speaker A: I have to interrupt you, Lexi. Why can't the rest of the world do this?
[00:53:57] Speaker B: Well, it does take money. You know, the Saudis do have some money, so they've been able to help.
[00:54:02] Speaker A: Those guys, those guys we spoke about in the beginning.
[00:54:05] Speaker B: Well, exactly. Of this episode, the money exists, and you're so right. We have enough money. There is definitely enough wealth on this earth. There is a huge amount of wealth that is not being used in the way it should be. So, you know, this is. This is wonderful. And you can see that this is a. An amazing example. And at the same time, we are working on this Alula project. We were also working on the project in south Essex, which was for a region 70,000 ha. So not as large as Alula, but again, very substantial and showing that, you know, even in places like the UK that are so highly developed, we have the opportunities to do some of these wonderful things in terms of restoring our waterways, improving biodiversity, improving air quality, you know, storm defense, and improving people's quality of life too. Making a place really, well, I would say maximizing its potential. So really capitalizing on what is in a particular place and bringing that to the fore, you know, really celebrating its unique attributes. So in Alula, we had a desert landscape so dry, struggling in terms of its groundwater.
And though the UK is very different, you know, it was dealing with storm water, almost the opposite. But yet if you apply the same approach, if you understand the landscape first and you understand how its geology is working, its hydrology is working, what plant communities exist or should exist there, how you can work with native planting, how you can bring wildlife back to a site to also help restore that landscape, because there are many interesting examples just about that too that we could talk about.
But it's the same approach. No matter where you are on the planet, it's the same considerations that you must have. But the final result and the outcome will be completely different depending on a particular place's unique attributes.
So we could use the same approach in both places, even though they were so different culturally and geographically.
[00:56:40] Speaker A: Fascinating. You have such a fascination job, honestly.
[00:56:44] Speaker B: You really do.
[00:56:46] Speaker A: You really do.
Anyhow, so, yeah, those projects are exemplary of what could be done in lots of places with, as you say, the exact same approach, but adapted to the landscape and the culture that are there.
[00:57:02] Speaker B: No, exactly. That is right. So that same approach that, those seven steps that I laid out, starting with the geographical surveys and the analysis and the assessment and the vision and the goal setting, all of those things are the same no matter where you are on the planet. But as I said, based on that information, you'll just achieve very different outcomes. And you should achieve very different outcomes based on where you are. Yeah.
[00:57:34] Speaker A: And what comes into my mind because of my own, my own background, is imagine that the people involved, instead of being boring, as you said yourself, you know, that's not good. Imagine that they just treat it like it's a film. I'm making a film and it's going to be absolutely, you know, full of drama and beauty and everything, maximizing, you know, everything. I've got the budget for the film and the, the session, the actors and everything, you know. So if that approach is taken, I can imagine that the results must be amazing.
[00:58:04] Speaker B: Well, that is such a great point, Jackie. You know, that is such a great point. Because we invest, well, so much money is invested into the creation of a film that is just phony. You know, it's not real life. And yet here we are with these amazing places in reality. They're real and these are real lives to be lived and wonderful experiences to be had and enjoyed daily. And yet we don't invest. And it's so hard to understand why that has happened. But as you say, if we put in that kind of creativity and passion that goes into so many works of art or entertainment within our development structure, that would be amazing.
[00:58:55] Speaker A: It would be amazing. And I'm going to go back to Ireland again now, but literally within, like, we'll say, two centuries, approximately. You know, we had the tradition in Ireland that, you know, some people will still remember it, of the Shana Key, which is the storyteller who was revered, you know, in our culture. And of course, we, you know, we have televisions, radios, cinemas, all sorts of gadgets now, and people have just locked themselves. Not everybody. That's, again, a sweeping statement, but lots of people are. At the end of a working day, I do it myself sometimes. I. I will hold my hand up and you sit down in front of the television, you know, because you're tired and we're used to doing these things. So, yeah, there's like, it's just about very similar situation as the beginning, the very first episode that we did. You know, it's such a short period of time that we've managed to do such terrible destruction, but at the same time, we've destructed ourselves because we don't expect, except for maybe two weeks of the year when we go for, like, you know, this amazing holiday. And again, once again, these are all sweeping statements. And that's what we've, we've brought ourselves down to this level of, like, working ants who then go and sit, you know, in front of the tv in the evening.
[01:00:09] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it's so true. And it's not just the tv now. Our children are being raised on screens, you know, and it's. It's so hard to avoid, even if you're trying to, even if you're trying to avoid it, it's almost impossible because of the way culture is now structured. So, you know, you see babies holding phones and their whole life is just lived through a screen. And it's. It's just heartbreaking to see.
But it is the world we live in now. And so we have to be very intentional about finding opportunities to connect with nature.
It's not just a given, it doesn't necessarily happen naturally, as it should. Now we kind of have to look for those opportunities and ensure that we're finding time in nature. You know, there's a lot of very intentional and purposeful initiatives out there about getting people into the forest, for example, to forest bathe, it's called, or, you know, to get to a stream side. Or there's, we just have to be so intentional now, which is, it seems odd that so much effort has to be put into these activities, but I. Yet it is so important. And I think, well, this might lead into the next chapter, actually. And talking about green education and thinking about how we're raising the next generation.
[01:01:41] Speaker A: I'd like to see, before we speak about that, I'd like to see, not just because of our discussion, obviously, there's lots of things happening all over the world, but I'd like to think that perhaps in, I don't want to put a number of years on it that the urban landscapes have been rewilded. So, in fact, there isn't the need for intentional recreation in nature and getting those kids away from the gadgets. And when you get them away, they're full of joy. I mean, I've seen it this summer here in Spain. You know, we're dealing with grandchildren and all of that type of stuff. You know, it's just a whole different thing. And they're delighted, you know. So I'd like to think that the urban. Urban and the peri urban landscapes that we've discussed and that will unfold over the coming decade or two, hopefully could just make that difference where we start to become part, part of nature again and much more connected with it in a natural way, you know? So, yes. Yeah, so, yes, we should discuss the last chapter, obviously.
Where were we going to talk about. Go on. You go first.
[01:02:45] Speaker B: Well, yeah, so, so in the following chapter, I talk about the country of Bhutan and I talk about them because of just what we were talking about, about the need to really instill in our children a love for nature that is really, you know, just part of their DNA, that is just part of their makeup and that really takes them back to their roots, really, you know, as part of this wonderful living world that we are part of. So, and also, you know, if there is to be hope for them and for future generations of living on a thriving planet, then I don't see how that will really be possible without instilling a love nature in our children from quite a young age. So Bhutan is an excellent example. So Bhutan really is way ahead of the curve in how they prioritize a respectful relationship between people and the planet. And they have done many things to ensure that this is sustained in their country. So it's the first and the only carbon negative country in the world. 75% of the country is under forest or shrub cover.
And more than half of the total area is protected for all time. So they've already achieved that target we spoke about earlier of 50% protected areas.
And they also have an initiative there called green schools for green Bhutan. And they use green as a metaphor for talking not just about green as a color or green in terms of plants, but green representing nature and our relationship to nature. So it's really based on the premise that honoring and appreciating the gifts of planet Earth is the most important lesson. So that's what they prioritize in their schools. You know, while academic subjects are important, you know, languages, mathematics, science, all of these things are important. But the majority of the schools around the world now only talk about those things. They don't talk necessarily about what it means to be a responsible citizen of planet Earth and how we can really sustain this earth that sustains us.
Well, definitely most schools do not prioritize that. So I would say that what Bhutan has going on is quite unique.
And, you know, there's some really nice examples.
I found an example of a school, I don't know if I'm pronouncing this correctly, but it's Higmi Losel primary school in Bhutan. And so this primary school is filled with plants.
And these plants play a central role in their education. And, you know, they're taught how to care for the plants, how to raise them from seeds, how to. How to care for them over time. And it's about teaching children that conservation of nature should be at the forefront of all of our thoughts and all of our behaviors.
So that's a wonderful example. I mean, that's Bhutan. And I suppose some people might think, well, that's Bhutan. How is that ever going to be possible in a place like the UK or the US or China or other places around the world? But actually, I say worldwide now you can find schools that are taking on that sort of philosophy and that sort of approach. So there's quite a few examples around the world. I even found a nice example in the Bronx where a school had brought in seeds and was bringing the cultivation of plants into the school and showing them how they can actually make that into a career, you know. So they started. Then this school in the Bronx started creating green walls and green roofs and that sort of thing for corporations and other places around the city. So they really were showing the students how not only is it important to care for the earth. But it can also help to support yourself, you know, in the future.
Yeah. Anyway, there's lots of great examples about forest schools and like this whole eco school movement. So it can be done elsewhere. Not just in Bhutan, but. Yeah, I think it just. It just highlights the wonderful example of Bhutan. Highlights how it's so important to raise a whole generation of people that are caring for the environment. And that can be the leaders in terms of restoring the earth well beyond our generation.
[01:08:15] Speaker A: Yeah. It all starts, doesn't it? I think at home, in school and in the local community. If they're an active local community, this is also very important.
[01:08:26] Speaker B: That's right. Yeah. I mean, yeah. At home, as you say, instilling the love of nature with your own children from a very young age is so important.
[01:08:38] Speaker A: It is. It is. Now we're back to one of your quotes. It's been a favorite theme throughout all of our conversations.
And this time, I mean, you've. You really gathered a group. I could imagine. I'm going to say these guys, they weren't. They weren't all males, obviously. But this group of people that you've quoted from. I can imagine them. The ones that have passed. Passed on in whatever. Whatever lays ahead of us all. They're in a group going, my God, they're mentioning us again. And this time it's Voltaire.
You open chapter 14 with Voltaire, which is a very famous quote. What is it, Lexi? And what is this chapter about?
[01:09:20] Speaker B: Right. Okay, so this chapter is called tend your plot. And that is based on Voltaire's quote from his novel candide that says, one must cultivate one's own garden.
And so I just thought, well, this is, you know, this is so appropriate.
What an appropriate quote to kind of close the book. That really we must all take personal responsibility and cultivate our own lives. Even if we don't have the opportunity to cultivate a garden, which, of course, many people do not have that opportunity. Literally, we each have the power to cultivate and curate our own lives. And to make conscious decisions about how we choose to behave on this planet. So this final chapter, well, it's the penultimate chapter, talks about our own individual responsibility. That we cannot wait for governments, for corporations, for our neighbors even to bring about change and restoration. Instead, we need to take personal responsibility for the change that we want to see. And, you know, I think Gandhi has a wonderful quote. He says, if we could change ourselves, the tendency in the world would also change. We need not wait to see what others do.
So it all starts with you, you know, it starts with me. It starts with all of us and each of us taking steps daily, little steps, even that over time will prove significant.
So in this chapter, I lay out ten key actions. They're not all of the actions that can be undertaken. There were just sort of the ten that I thought resonated the most and that could make the most impact if everyone was looking at them daily and, and taking steps towards transforming their own behavior daily. So maybe I'll just mention a few of them.
[01:11:45] Speaker A: Go ahead.
[01:11:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
So one is exercising your citizenship. I've made that one the first one because there's so much in the book that isn't necessarily something, you know, it lays out strategies, for example, around design and planning. It talks about legislation that can be put in place. It talks about education and skill building. Well, of course, not everyone will be able to get directly involved with those activities, but what everyone can be involved with is using their voice and exercising their citizenship in terms of how we advocate for change to be made and calling on government to make the changes that we want to see in terms of environmental stewardship. So I put that first because absolutely everybody can do that. You can also educate yourself. You know, you can seek out peer reviewed articles. Don't just look at TikToker.
[01:12:48] Speaker A: Great advice there.
[01:12:52] Speaker B: People. I mean, these days there's so much misinformation and disinformation. You really have to seek out real information and you can find that in peer reviewed articles. And sometimes you might have to pay for the information. It's important that true information is sought and that you educate and keep yourself informed and that you look for ways to contribute, even the way you travel. We've spoken about that. You know, if you can walk or cycle, obviously it's not always possible, but, you know, start there and then kind of move up the chain. So if you absolutely have to drive, you have to drive. But there may be other ways. You might be able to take public transport.
You might choose a holiday in a place that's not quite as far away as Canada, where I am right now.
You could, you know, change your eating habits. This might be the most important one. We've talked a lot about agricultural revolution needing to occur and the way we eat the chooses the food that we choose to buy, the places that we choose to shop make such an incredible difference.
And if we are choosing to buy from farmers that have grown their food sustainably and organically, then we're helping to support that whole movement away from industrial and unhealthy agriculture. So that's incredibly important. And then, of course, the way we deal with the waste from our food also makes a huge difference.
And just waste in general, you know, the opportunities about reusing and recycling, there's a lot that can be done there. Composting, you know, it's very important and also will nourish your garden if you're. If you have one.
We can be saving energy. We can be looking at greener energy sources.
And then, you know, I even mentioned working with the local community for community garden initiatives or greening the streets, keeping our streams clean. There's just so many things that we can do that are tending our own plot. I even use an example, the final one is tending your own plot. And how, you know, even if you just consider the amount of gardens in the world, private gardens, you know, they're, most of them are not very large. They're just little stamp sized pieces of land. But if everyone were to treat those bits of land in a precious way, rather than, for example, just paving over them and making them impermeable or building a structure on it or using artificial turf, you know, if we just really respected those little pieces of land and made them dynamic, life giving places, you know, with all of those combined, then it's significant what can be achieved.
So really, I just wanted to encourage people to not feel discouraged, to feel that they actually can make a difference in their personal lives. Because of course, everyone can.
It is very true that each one of us can have significant influence. And we can then encourage our families, our friends, we can have these conversations within our communities and you can have great influence. You don't have to be involved professionally to have that kind of influence.
[01:16:48] Speaker A: Fantastic. No, you see so many more. I mean, I don't know what it's like where you are and where you are in both places, Vancouver, obviously, and the UK. But in Spain, you see a lot of the community garden projects. You see a lot over here. And I think this is just amazing for people. And, okay, it's only one small example related to so many other things, as you've rightly said, that people can do small, small things in their own lives and then people are seeing that and people are learning from them and being motivated by them. And it also gives power to people. People feel a little bit more powerful and less, you know, useless. I mean, what's happening to the world and I can do nothing, you know?
[01:17:29] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Yes.
[01:17:31] Speaker A: It's very, very important. Now we have actually come to the final chapter, reframing our future vision to reality. That wraps off your book really excellently. What are your final words? And, you know, how would you like to leave everybody with the ending of your amazing book?
[01:17:51] Speaker B: Well, the final chapter is called reframing our future vision to reality.
And this final chapter is a call to action.
I wanted people, you know, to move from that, that penultimate chapter that we just spoke about, looking at how they can personally be involved. And then this is a conclusion to just help us all to remember that, you know, we are living on an incredible planet. The biosphere is awe inspiring. It's one of a kind. It's irreplaceable, and we have to remember that. We have to treat it as fragile and precious and incredible. I mean, it's everything to us, sustains us. It provides the food we eat, the water we drink, the air we breathe. And so it must be our priority.
Nothing else is more important.
And the truth is that we are part of nature. We are not separate from nature. And now we have to start living that truth. And I hope that this book has provided enough ideas that you feel empowered to start living that truth, because I think it can be overwhelming to think about how you can personally change and what needs to be done. But I really hope that through this book, it provides enough information and enough ideas about how we can start the transformation, that people do feel empowered and that they do feel that they can make a difference. So, you know, everyone has to take responsibility, and everyone has to do their part in this very grand endeavor. It's a huge undertaking. It will take the involvement of everyone to turn things around.
And, you know, this chapter, I think, is probably the only chapter that I didn't start with a quote, but I ended it with a quote, and I'm going to read that quote now.
Again, it was from Einstein. So I started the entire book with a quote from Einstein about embracing all of nature.
And this quote is, each of us has to do his little bit toward transforming this spirit of the times.
And so my final question in the book is, now I ask you, what is your bit?
So I want to leave everybody with that question now, what can you or I personally do to bring about this change?
[01:21:00] Speaker A: And no matter how small your part is, it's a part of some sort. And, you know, the fact is, even if it's small, it feels achievable, and it gives you some power, and you'll feel much better for that. So whatever it is, don't feel, like, embarrassed. Oh, I still have to drive to work because it's x amount of miles or kilometers away, or there's things that you just won't be able to change. But just do something small to begin with and then see how that goes. Isn't that the easiest way? Small, small, little baby steps.
[01:21:36] Speaker B: That's right. And you know, even great endeavors are made up of a number of small steps. So each day, you know, each little thing we do has an impact, and it's those steps over time that create something wonderful.
[01:21:56] Speaker A: That's it. It'll be no different having written a book myself. It'll be no different to how any author produces a book unless they're writing with the help of, like, artificial intelligence, or they're staying up for days on end with lots of coffee or coke or whatever.
It is a question of research and small steps that will end up in what can be and in your case, and is very definitely a great work.
[01:22:26] Speaker B: Oh, thank you so much, Jackie. It's been such a pleasure. I'm going to miss our conversation.
[01:22:30] Speaker A: It really has conversations. Yeah, me too.
This is constructive voices. Constructive voices, the podcast for the construction people with news, views and expert interviews.
[01:22:46] Speaker B: It.
