[00:00:00] Speaker A: Constructive Voices, the podcast for the construction people with news, views and expert interviews. Coming up on this episode of Constructive Voices, we'll hear about an ambitious and exciting project centered around a new football stadium on Merseyside. And with the cost of building materials rising along with tight supplies, it's a good time to think about sustainable construction and how the industry can help drive the green agenda. Pete the builder will be sharing his insights. Constructive Voices brought to you by Lewis Access British made scaffold towers and Access Products. Hi, I'm Steve Randall. A big thanks as always for your support for this podcast. Whether you're sharing it on social media, telling your mates about it or simply listening, the team really appreciates it and your amazing feedback. Please keep it coming now. This week marks the start of one of the four yearly battles for football supremacy, the UEFA European Championship and the delayed Euro 2020 tournament. So, with the beautiful game in focus, Henry Macdonald has been talking to Professor Michael Parkinson from the University of Liverpool. He's an expert on urban regeneration and says that a major riverside project centred around a half a billion pound stadium for Everton Football Club is the missing piece of the jigsaw for Liverpool's renaissance. He told Henry about his passion for his home city.
[00:01:26] Speaker B: I've done a lot on cities in many countries, but I made my name writing and talking about Liverpool. I wrote Liverpool on the Brink in 1985 which showed the total collapse of the city, economically, politically, financially.
I wrote Liverpool beyond the brink in 2019 which demonstrated the continuing, incredible, if incomplete renaissance. So the best part of my professional career has been spent being a Liverpool watcher and jolly interesting has been too.
[00:02:01] Speaker C: And you're also an insider, aren't you? You're watching somewhat from the inside.
[00:02:05] Speaker B: I know them and they know me. I live in Toxteth. I've always done to do the kind of work I do. You need to know people, they need to trust you. And I still see people from the old days in the 1980s. Some of them are not politically very acceptable these days. I see those who run the City in every decade and I now know the people who run it at the City, the private sector people. So sadly, yes, I'm an insider, but I still think honest.
[00:02:36] Speaker C: And before we get into the specifics of this stadium project by the Mersey, what do you think are the reasons for the general renaissance from the vantage point of when you wrote your book and ever since?
[00:02:49] Speaker B: A whole set of things I would say.
First of all, the City learned it had to stop complaining, criticizing and start focusing on what it was good at and take control of its own future. So the leadership changed is the first thing to be said.
Secondly, 30 years ago the private sector and public sector were at odds at each other's throat. That's changed. So you've got now much more partnership approach and it's a cliche to working together.
There's some of the local factors, I think there's some very important external factors.
As my book showed, British government made a huge difference when it was investing in cities. Liverpool went up and when it stopped investing in cities, Liverpool went down. So all the phase of Liverpool recovery coincided with governments which were keen to invest in cities basically. And you can look at that through the impact of Thatcher or New labor or austerity or coalition government. So national government when it's against cities has harmed Liverpool when it's forced cities has helped Liverpool.
And I think the really crucial feature is European Liverpool is a global trading city. It's a European city. And frankly European money in the 1990s was a difference from between Liverpool collapsing and Liverpool recovering. 1.4 billion over 10 years.
Europe took a risk and invested in Liverpool when national government wouldn't. And all that European money made the city region work together, focused on its modern assets, skills, labor, heritage, tourism, city center, digital green. All the things which drive the Liverpool economy now were identified by the European Commission.
Actually the European capital of culture in 2008 was a crucial event because it showed the world we could run a proper affair. It showed ourselves we could run a proper affair. And it gave the Scousers really a self confidence back that they'd lost. So you went from this culture of failure to a culture of success. The other big big thing was the Duke of Westminster through his property company investing in Liverpool One in the 2000s. And Liverpool One is the best mixed use city, century development in much of Europe. It was almost as much as European Commission money. 1.4 billion. It transformed the city center from a tired, rundown, shabby place to a place which was fit for a once great city. It connected the water to the city center to the commercial district, the cultural industries quarter.
There was a big hole at the central loophole and loophole one fixed it. So Europe capital of culture Liverpool won local leadership, Labour party changing its spots from the militant head banging into the Progressive Alliance. I also have to say there was some very good leadership in and around the 2000 when Labour was running National Government from 97 to 2010 the city was not run by Labour, it was run by the Liberal Democrats.
And frankly the then leader Mike Story, now Lord Story and the Chief executive David Henshaw, now Sir David Henshaw really saw the opportunity to reposition the city and I think they were the crucial local ingredient which capitalized upon the crucial national ingredient which is the Labour government's invest in cities, which captured the private sector realizing we can make money in cities which built upon European investment. So a series of linked factors, from the personal to the political to the financial, tell the Liverpool story. It ain't complete. There's lots of issues where we haven't done well enough economically, physically, socially, we all know there's problems, but it is unrecognizable from the place it was 35 years ago. It had a very good boom and actually had quite a decent bust. And Liverpool did not go as far backwards during austerity and coalition government as it could have done. So we're further up the hill and I think we're staying there.
And obviously Covid and the pandemic has been a big hit for every city. We know that it's been a big hit for Liverpool because a lot of it is based on what you might call a city centre economy, tourism, retail, but also it has been a great bonus to the city because we have a very powerful educational medical complex which actually is leading in a lot of the infectious drug business. So on the one hand Covid has hit what you might call the softer bit to the Liverpool city centre economy, but that is the lower value added bit. But actually it's underlined. We're a global leader in some of those really key, innovative, edgy things. So it's shown there are even issues to address there. We know, but in terms of health, Liverpool leads. We're doing all the government testing, all initiatives, all the pilots and they trust us. So I think it's been a mixed blessing and obviously terrible tragedy for people and families and communities.
But it has also shown economically there is still a lot for Liverpool to go on.
[00:09:03] Speaker C: One interesting thing you said in your preamble was bringing the city centre to the water.
Now that brings me to the Mersey, specifically to a place called Bramley Moor Dock. Tell me about that project, what it's going to do to this ongoing renaissance, as you call it, of Merseyside.
[00:09:21] Speaker B: The river made Liverpool the richest city in the greatest empire the world had ever seen outside of London. The collapse of the docks in the 60s and 70s and 80s dragged Liverpool down.
So it is the river has been absolutely crucial to the city's economic renaissance to climb, rise and fall. Secondly, the River I think is better than most riverfronts you can see. You might argue at Boston, you might argue about New York, you might argue about Hamburg. But as a riverfront visually it is a stunning spectacle. It is big, it is wide, it is exciting.
And for 30 years Liverpool turned its back to the water, its back to the city. When the development corporation got going in the 80s, we started to see the role of the river and the waterfront. And encouraged by Europe we realized it was a terrific asset. And I think a huge amount has been done. But it's been a very small part of the river, the waterfront.
And I think what it really means is we fixed part of the city center and a part of the waterfront. Now Evan Football Club have got these hugely ambitious plans to put one of the most sustainable, greenest stadia in one of the most challenging parts of Liverpool city and city centre, which is North Liverpool.
So it is a project which we can talk about the numbers in due course which would transform the worst part of the waterfront. It's currently derelict and neglected. The only thing that's near the dock is actually the local sewage treatment factory.
It is a part which is very close to North Liverpool which grew up on the docks. And when the docks decline it fell. And therefore that part of the city has the worst economic social problems of any bit of Liverpool city region.
And it is physically not more than one mile from the regenerated city center. So Evan Football Club having tried to develop a new stadium for a long time and failed and needing to develop a stadium because it's a marvelous place but other than too small, have got a grand project to invest in Bramley Moor dock to make a really high quality building which respects heritage, which would form a huge anchor in North Liverpool, would tie that part of the city at Bramley Moor which is the furthest part of the old docks back into the city center and would be a driver of development in that 1 mile between Bramley Moor and frankly the Liber buildings.
There's already quite a lot of development going on there because of Peel Waters Co. And there's a lot of residential stuff and some office stuff and that's taking place.
But the football stadium would be a huge economic driver. I mean we could talk about the figures about economic impact. It would be a terrific heritage thing. It would be a great visible project which would attract tourists and it would physically anchor and ensure that the growth of the city went back out into the parts which had failed. So huge symbolic significance, huge cultural significance, huge physical significance and hugely exciting and at the other end of the waterfront where we had the Garden Festival of Michael Heseltine 1984. And I should say Michael Heseltine was, I should have mentioned as who helped fix Liverpool. He did with the Mersey Development Corporation City Challenge with Devolution letting go city regions. Heseltine and national level drove many of the initiatives which helped Liverpool. But we left the Garden Festival site go to Rack and Roam that is now being developed in the south side of the city.
So what Liverpool has in prospect are two major developments, one north, one south, which themselves would be hugely significant but would fill in the rest of the river down to the city centre.
This is Liverpool's new great project.
[00:14:17] Speaker C: Now there were some obstacles, some challenges before Everton Football Club got permission to start building, although they haven't started building yet. But can you outline what those obstacles and challenges were?
[00:14:28] Speaker B: Yes, we talked about the River Fund being terribly important.
Liverpool is a World Heritage Site designated by UNESCO. UNESCO in recent years, about a decade has been concerned by and frankly quite opposed to the development which is taking place on Liverpool waterfront. In and around the city centre.
In the old docks they take a view that the place has been overdeveloped, that the heights are too high, that the city's not investing enough in heritage, not respecting heritage enough.
And so for the last 10 years there's been a grumbling conversation between the city's leaders and UNESCO and World Heritage Committee about whether Liverpool might lose its World Heritage status, which it got in 2004. That has grumbled on and that's quite complex and your listeners don't want to know anything about it.
But the argument is if the Liverpool loses its heritage status, it will lose some of its attraction as a visitor economy.
The other side of the argument which the city leaders have made and which Evan fought clever made is look, the city is not a museum. It is not set in aspic. This part of the city, what we might call near North Opal, the old docks sitting next to the regenerated city center, around the waterfront, round lava building. They've lain derelict for 50, 60 years. They are a disgrace actually. Nothing has happened. They're walled off, the people can't get in. And so that area of the city looks today like the Albert Dock looked in 1984 before we invested and opened it up. And the Albert Dock complex is now a hugely significant part of the Liverpool visitor economy. City centre economy, city regional economy, hugely important. And the visitor economy is the biggest bit of economy. So the argument is we need to develop that part of the city in the same way as we developed Liverpool city centre.
The issues are complex but in my judgment this project, and we'll talk numbers later is the only really massive project that could come to Liverpool in the next five and 10 years.
Apart from what might happen in the University Court around medical and health. This is basically a half billion construction project which would probably bring in 1.3, 1.4 billion to Liverpool economy which is exactly the same number that European Objective one money brought and exactly the same number that Liverpool won brought. You need scale for these and this is a huge economic opportunity and if we missed it, I think the city would lose ground.
Happily.
Everton made a very impressive proposal. It did incredibly extensive and successful consultation process. 60,000 people. It has almost unanimous support. I mean it's in the 90% and plus for local people to build it. And so there was always a big question.
If British government which wants to protect the World Heritage Site in the UK and wants to keep Liverpool's World Heritage Site, would it quote call in and possibly reject Everton's proposal which has been authorized by the City Council Planning Authority in case it might risk the heritage status.
Happily in our own judgment, rightly Secretary Oliver down said last month no, we approve this project, we can see the risk but we think it's terribly important to future Liverpool.
In the next few months we will see if that loses Liverpool World Heritage status or not. That is uncertain. I have my own views of what might happen but frankly we guess it. So there has been a huge question of whether British government would approve in principle a project of that scale at that place. It has done so. There's obviously a second question. Have they got the money? And at one point the city council is going to invest quite a lot of money about something like I think 25% of the overall cost. The city council is no longer position to do that because it doesn't have that money.
But Evan Football Club have always said they can generate that money on the private market. In fact by having the city council involved in a way they were doing the city a favor in giving the city a stake in the stadium rather than Evan Football Club actually needing that money. So now the planning issues have been resolved and it can go ahead. The financial issues I think have not been affected by the City council and I know the people involved in this project and I'm confident they will get that money on the private market.
You then get down to some technical issues of how do you handle the waterfront there. They'll need to fill in part of the Waterfront, which is one of the reasons UNESCO objects to development. But they've done that. And there will also be some complicated issues about access, transport, making sure you can get 60,000 people in and out of a stadium safely at an appropriate time. They're still being addressed, but I think they're operational. Second order questions. So you had a policy issue, a government resolve, you had a financial question resolved, you got some technical practical questions. They are being resolved and I have to say the quality of the proposed stadium is fantastic. Everton are determined something high quality. They've listened to people in their consultation processes. They've got top class New York architects. It is truly a stunning project. Unlike many rebuilt or newly built football stadium which are soulless and could be anywhere. This pays homage to the original architect of Goodison, Archie Leitch.
They've used some of the same motifs as it were, they've built in some of the heritage features. They're keeping the old railway lines, the cobblestones, they're keeping the old watchtower, all these things which might have been lost.
They're thinking carefully about how to travel back in to the city center. They're also probably a question people have in their mind, does this mean they're abandoning Buddhist and the community? Not they've got plans for that.
So I would say the evident history of trying to get a new ground has been an unhappy one and several high profile failures.
I think this is entirely different kettle of fish.
I think it will happen, I think it's necessary and I think it'd make a major contribution to the city.
[00:22:34] Speaker C: Okay, so big construction project equals jobs, equals investment. Two questions really then how many jobs are estimated to be generated and how many construction firms, this is construction site. How many building firms will benefit as well?
[00:22:52] Speaker B: Okay, I'm not quite sure that latter, but just let me give you some big numbers on the scale of this project so your listener will know the overall impact. And I've seen the reports, I've seen the evaluations been properly done, this would be a 1.3 billion boost to local economy.
When done both during and when done, 15,000 jobs for local people. It will attract 1.4 million visitors annually to the city.
If it happens, it's calculated it will have an impact upon the rest of the area and will accelerate the plans to invest 650 million in that area already, they reckon there'll be over £250 million going into the local supply chain. For local businesses, they reckon will be over £30 million going to local families who are working on the new Developments, it will generate over 2 million. The city council in council tax, it will provide almost an extra 2 million in business rates. And in terms of social value, jobs, social facilities for the people, it's calculated about 250 million additional social value. So these are I think accurate, well founded figures. So huge impact, global figures, number of local people employed, impact on the local economy, vast and of a scale that we haven't seen for 15 years with.
[00:24:35] Speaker C: Any mega construction project in a city. It's a difficult question, but I'm going to throw it in anyway. What sort of time frame are we talking about?
[00:24:44] Speaker B: Roughly three years. They're pretty confident that from Spade in the Ground and I would expect that now to be in the autumn of this year, 2021, it would be possible but ambitious to get people sitting in that stadium in August, September 2024.
That might be ambitious, but I would certainly say that four years from now there'll be people sitting, watching football on that derelict site which the minute is windswept, looks awful hidden away and I think you have a pretty shiny stadium linked to the water, generating life and activity. So I would say four years now we know things always slip, but three years to build, four years to get people through the doors, that's what Evan are aiming for. Who knows what the world will bring us in that period, But I would think that's a pretty reasonable assumption. Covid permitting.
[00:25:58] Speaker C: Quite. You used an interesting word talking about the stadium itself. Sustainable. Can you elaborate on that?
[00:26:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm looking at what they're trying to do in two ways. I think they're going to harness solar power, wind power and rain power to create green energy and reduce traditional energy consumption. That's what they're doing. That's built in. So heritage is built in, Sustainability is built in as is inclusivity and accessibility. It is going to be the most accessible in the uk. More wheelchair places, accessible seating in all stands at different levels, changing places in every facilities in every stand. So inclusive, heritage sustainable. I mean they have thought this through.
[00:26:50] Speaker C: No, it's the home of the blues, of course, and I know that only too well myself. But is it also going to be the greenest stadium?
[00:26:57] Speaker B: Yes, I think it will. I mean one thing they've done is they've reduced the amount of car parking facilities because there is an issue getting people in and out. It would be better if there was a nearer local train station. There isn't. There is some nearish, so they're going to have to move things around. But I think they're Going to minimize the use of cars as much as possible, maximize use of public transport as much as possible, maximize walking to the ground as much as possible. We've all found in Covid what seemed like a long way away is actually quite a short way away to walk. And frankly, I think it's probably. I've done it 25 minutes walk from the city center. Why would you not simply just walk there? So in fact, when you go to football stadium now, you sometimes park half an hour away and walk in. So yes, I think they will try and make it as green as possible.
[00:27:56] Speaker C: Any other unique architectural aspect to the plans?
[00:28:00] Speaker B: I don't know it's unique. I just think it's a wonderfully inspiring stadium. I'm a red, but when I was.
[00:28:08] Speaker C: A student, that's okay, we forgive you.
[00:28:11] Speaker B: Well, as we say, cross is the bear for your side.
When I was a student in the 60s, it was standard to go to Anfield one Saturday, Goodison the next Saturday. So I stood at Goodison for three years every other Saturday between 1962 and 1965. It is a great place to watch football, basically because it captures the atmosphere and the noise and as we all know, the cliches of COVID that the crucial part of football is not the green pitch, it's the people standing around the green pitch. You know, they have been very careful to make it very steep, to capture the noise, to get this physical proximity to the place. So they're trying to attain the authentic Goodison, you know, old fashioned atmosphere. And I think that's really important.
I think they're opening up to the river and they've turned it around a little bit and they've added on, after consultation, a kind of a plaza which connects to the river. So I think they're maximizing the river, they're maximizing the atmosphere, they're maximizing the heritage dimension. So I think this is not going to be some cheerful, cheerful football stadium. I think it's something that people will generally be proud of. I think it's something people will come to see. I think it'll be animated, you know, seven days a week. It's not going to be every Saturday afternoon from 3:00 to 5:00. It's going to be part of the heritage trail.
So architecturally, culturally, I think they made a huge statement and you know, it'll be expensive, it'll cost, but I think they're saying that's what they want. Evan Football club have really got a huge commitment to the community. We could talk about Evan in the community, which has been hugely impressive and they see themselves as the people's club. I know it's the tagline they use.
I think they are deeply committed to that part of the city and want to do the right thing for the people and the club and the city itself. So I think, and let's be honest, Everton Football Club came out with the strongest statement against the European Super League imaginable. And Everton Football Club leadership directly accused their friends and colleagues and neighbours across in my club of doing the wrong thing. And that would not be easy given their need to collaborate. So I think that's evidence of the fact that Evan Football Club and I know the chief executive needs Barrett Baconville very well. She started or developed Evan in the community. She brings all of that into the club. So I think they see this as a kind of social obligation as much as a commercial opportunity, which it clearly has to be to justify half a billion expenditure.
[00:31:25] Speaker C: Now you imagine Goodison park, the old heart of the club in Liverpool, four other clubs that have moved into new building projects, you know, whether it's West Ham down and down in the old Olympic Stadium or Arsenal moving from the traditional home of Highbury North London not too far away. How can you fill the economic void and the social void too that when the club no longer exists because there's a lot of businesses around the stadium that subsist or feed off the crowds that come on alternating Saturdays, how is that going to be addressed?
[00:32:01] Speaker B: Okay, Evan Football Club and again I have to pay tribute to this are absolutely clear. They're not walking away from Goodison, they're making Goodison a legacy project and they're saying we're not selling off the highest bidder, we're not selling off a private housing or a supermarket. They're going to work with local partners to create in effect a whole community facility. They want to deliver what they call a unique regeneration project. They've got outline planning permission for new housing, health facilities, education facilities, sheltered housing for local people, elderly people, abuse zone and business startup facilities. That's what they intend to do. Health community, young people, elderly people. Will they do it? Everton in the community has spent 10 million pounds in recent years investing in three big facilities.
They have the free school, they have the people's hub which is community center, they have the blue base which is function space and they're about to build a mental health support thing called the People's Place. They have made a huge commitment to this area anyway on a huge investment, on a voluntary basis. The Club been very good about it and they've raised the bar for everyone else I suspect it's the best in the country I think it probably is and so they're saying we're not throwing that away the way we ran out the community and our commitment to the place will be preserved and they have very ambitious, innovative, exciting plans to do all of that. Again money has to be found but I think if you ask me are they serious, are they committed? Absolutely. They understand the risk, the reputational damage of the club walking away and saying that's history, forgot all that we have a shiny new stadium on the waterfront they're determined to avoid that now whether.
[00:34:10] Speaker C: It'S Bramley Murdoch or what's going to happen to Goodison afterwards Talking construction presumably some of the big players on Merseyside in the building industry will be involved in this will be co partners in what Everton are doing.
[00:34:25] Speaker B: Oh yes, I mean I can't name names but it's. They've worked with local developers already they've worked with international developers they'll be working I guess with some of the best people There'll be a knock on impact for local firms small and large There'll be global companies being involved I mean as we've agreed it's a half billion pound project it's going to involve an awful lot of developers and construction people and I think an awful lot of local city centre development has been one off residential developments and some of which have run into difficulty locally. I suspect this is going to be better money, longer term money higher quality developers, higher standards all round so again in terms of impact upon the development industry and construction process in Liverpool I'd be hoping that this would be a quality affair which raised the bar and I myself said one of the risks to Liverpool is over development of the city centre and also development which is frankly too low quality and I'm hoping that this not only results in a fancy stadium but will have impact upon the standards the city council set for the rest of development across the city center. So I think it's significant for itself and significant for the kind of development that Liverpool does in the next decade. I think at the top of the hill with the university in the knowledge court and I'm involved in that obviously there is a huge amount of money I mean hundreds of millions going in already into development there and we just finished the spine building for the British Medical association which is the greenest building they claim in the world. We shall see so I think these two big projects I think the future Liverpool in next 20 years will be determined by the extent to which we can get the Vista economy, the cultural economy, the entertainment industry, the city center economy going again post Covid and the early signs are promising but it's too soon to tell.
And the high value added stuff at the top end of the city center and the interesting thing about that is there is a straight line which links Bramley Moor Dock back through Everton Goodison and North Liverpool across to the new Knowledge quarter. And so you can see these two development areas providing real long term economic opportunity to that area in the middle which currently has the worst crime, the worst education, the low skills, the greatest problems. So I think for me the key question to ask of these developments and the waterfront and knowledge quarters, will they guarantee that the benefits will be shared by local people and local communities as much as by visitors or indeed international developers? So for me this is the test. It's not simply construction and development, it is where do the benefits go, are they retained locally?
And the test will be in 10 years time. 95% of people asked do you want this to happen? Said yes in 10 years time. If we ask them again, are you pleased with what they've done? That will be the acid test and I think we should hold the club and the Knowledge quarter to that test. Do local peoples think this was good for them and their place?
[00:38:31] Speaker C: Now given what you said about the sustainability aspect, maybe one of the greenest stadiums, if not the greenest in Britain, the unique architectural nature of it and the social economy that it will contribute to. Do you think this construction project could be a template for other clubs in any sport rebuilding around the world?
[00:38:57] Speaker B: Absolutely, I really really do. You know we were joking before. I support Liverpool, I'm a red, et cetera, et cetera and I think our own has been very good for the club but have made some serious strategic mistakes and they paid a price for that. Evan Football Club have not been as successful as a football club as Liver Football Club but I think their commitment to the city has been greater than ours.
I think their ambition for the new development is really fantastic. I think if they pull this off I think it will become a global leader, I really do. I think that's the significance of this. We can all think of cheap and cheerful football stadia which frankly you might as well be in Tesco's. They've got no soul, no quality, you can't defend them except you know they're there, they're modern and you can park. I think this is a different kettle of fish. And I do generally think if they pull it off, and they haven't pulled it off until they pulled it off, but if they pull off and deliver anything of ambition, quality and innovation, green sustainability, community engagement, inclusion, if they do that, it'll be the guggenheim of the 2000 and twenties. Everybody wants to come and see how they did that. If they pull it off, and I hope they do, I think they will do. I rate very highly the people involved in this. I know the people from the community end, they're serious people.
I know some of the more commercial people, they're very good. So I think this could become, frankly, a world leader.
And I think when Oliver Dowden was deciding, should we, quote, call this in and possibly stop the development, he knew that it was a massive opportunity for Liverpool, full stop.
I think it's a massive opportunity for the uk.
I think it could be a real signal statement of this is how you do corporate, global sporting stuff, which has a heart.
I think, given what we've seen about European Super League and the reaction of fans, I think all of that is going to become more, not less, important.
And I think Everton are kind of, as I say, leading on that.
[00:41:25] Speaker C: Superb. Michael, thank you very much for what's been a fascinating discussion and let's hope both our clubs start to progress. We need to catch up, obviously, but I can't wait to go to the first derby at Bramley Moor Dock between the Reds and the Blues.
[00:41:40] Speaker B: I have said to Denise Barrett Baxendale, for all the promotion I'm giving this, I expect a seat in the director's box for the first time. And they have said, we will keep you in mind.
[00:41:51] Speaker A: This is constructive voices. A big thanks to Professor Michael Parkinson for sharing his insights into urban redevelopment. And you can find out
[email protected] don't forget the dash. And leading on from the sustainability part of the project, let's chat in broader terms about construction's green scene with our man on the ground and on the tv, Pete the Builder, Peter Finn.
[00:42:17] Speaker D: How are you, Steve? How's things?
[00:42:18] Speaker A: Yeah, very well, thank you. Things are still looking very optimistic and, yeah, things. Things are looking good and I'm sure you're as busy as ever.
[00:42:27] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, the future is bright where we're all kind of moving in the right direction and, yeah, busy, busy, busy, which is all good.
[00:42:35] Speaker A: Now we're going to talk about something which is kind of a. An ongoing theme really, in the podcast because, you know, Henry's done bits on this, Matt has as well. We haven't talked about it so much so far, but the whole green revolution in construction, which is such a big theme, isn't it?
[00:42:55] Speaker D: Yeah, absolutely. Like, I suppose we're talking here about, you know, how are things, Is the future looking good? And you know what, let's be honest, the future of the planet is something that touches on every single person around the world. Whether you're living in Timbuktu or Tipperary, you. You need to think about the planet because we're all on the same planet and been listening to the news. We all know that climate change is happening. It's been identified that the reason for that is, you know, carbon footprint, greenhouse gas. You know, sometimes I think we can look at these things and go, I'm only one little person or my little change in my habit going to have an effect. Well, the answer is yes, it is. And I suppose especially as construction workers and people in the construction industry, it's absolutely our obligation to make sure that we do what we can to try and help this situation. Because you know what, like I. I've said it before, I have three young kids. I don't want them growing up in a Mad Max situation or, you know, Waterworld situation like Kevin Costner was. I want my kids to enjoy the planet. And if it's something that I can do now to help that situation, well, I'm willing to do it. And I really do think that people out there in all industries, but in particular, look, we're construction people, so we're talking about the construction element of it. I think that we all need to do what we can to help improve the planet and help improve energy efficiency and our carbon footprint and all of those things. If we can start making sure that we're making percentage gains, we're only going to make our world situation a more positive one.
[00:44:24] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And we will talk about some of the things that are already happening and the way that things are going to make construction greener. But just picking up on something you said about the small things that we can do as consumers, and whether you're going into a local takeaway or you're buying materials for a building project, you're a consumer and you have some power there. You know, each of us individually have some power there. Like when I go into McDonald's, for example, and they give you the cardboard cup holder, if you're buying two drinks, I always take the drinks out of that and say, you know, I don't need that because I can carry two cups. I don't want to have to deal with extra rubbish. And I suppose in the construction industry a similar sort of thing, you know, if something's wrapped in plastic or something's using a material that actually doesn't really need to use it, if we just kind of point that out to the people selling this, the stuff, then eventually the message will get through.
[00:45:17] Speaker D: Yeah, absolutely. Like, I mean, I know Henry has done a topic on, on this already, changing streams, and without the shadow of a doubt, when I heard that, of course, I just started thinking about my own situation and what I see on my sites every day and what I seen around me every day. In particular, plastics have. They're such a flexible and handy material and they, you know, they can wrap things really well and they can make materials and products easy to transport. Therefore, it is a go to material. If you want to get a product from A to B and make sure that it's done safely and it gets there in the correct condition, you're going to try and do what you can to get it there. But sometimes it just becomes a habit then. And no matter what the product is, you just go, okay, plastic is the answer. It's not good enough. Like, I mean, we need to change. We need to take a bit of responsibility of our own actions and what we've got going on around us. And I suppose, like, that's what I was going to discuss with you today. It comes from all levels. It's not just for the want of a better expression, just ordinary people on the street, Steve. It's got to do with everybody, right up to government level, right up to, you know, world leaders. Everybody is aware of this and people are taking some action. Some people are taking it more seriously than others. But again, you know what, you always have to just say to yourself, some people will always come on board with these things and some people won't. There's a lot of very proactive incentives being put in place. Like, for example, in, in Ireland, we've got the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland. And basically what that is is it's a government body that's been set up and it has targets that it's been set to help Ireland as a country to be more efficient in, in everything it does, but in particular in its energy and in its home. So to make sure that any homes that are being built from now on and houses that are actually currently built to improve them and improve their energy efficiency. Because we all know, again, I've said this several times on the podcast before, I've a lot of experience in working on houses of all different ages, like you know, conservation and buildings which are, you know, hundreds of years old right up to new build. Obviously if you're starting a new build, you've got the opportunity to put some, you know, energy efficient materials and obviously your, your heating controls and that type of thing in. But if you've bought a house that is pre existing and already has a heating system in it and a certain amount of insulation in it, there's no incentives from the Irish government to help you to change and adapt your house to improve it. And that is not only happening in Ireland, that is happening throughout Europe and throughout the world. Obviously each region, each location has its own different way of approaching these things. But I know from an EU point of view, the EU have set targets and they are driving their members to make sure that they reach those targets. And some of the targets are really, really high. But they have to be because we have been a little bit flippant the last couple of generations and our generation have probably been too hard on the planet in terms of the way that we have proactively increased our industry. The rate of industry has just gone through the roof. The population has got bigger and you know, sometimes when there's pressure points there, it just gets spread quickly to try and fire fight what's going on. But now I think people have to really start taking responsibility of that and they have to start managing it a bit properly, which is great. And you know what, we're all part of it.
[00:48:31] Speaker A: Interesting that governments do what they do and we call on governments to do things, but very often they are lagging consumers thoughts and demands. And certainly when you talk about the generations, the younger generations, the millennials, the Gen Zs, are really, really fired up about climate change and taking the necessary steps to reverse anything that can be reversed, but certainly to slow down the rate of climate change. So it's that consumer demand that really is going to drive things even further. And of course suddenly for bigger construction firms, it's going to be investors who say, we're not going to invest in your company unless you can show that you're green.
[00:49:13] Speaker D: You know, it does take people a period of time to change the way they think and to accept the fact that while they may be making massive profit, they are actually creating more problems. And then, you know, some people just don't care. Some people go, well look, I'm, I'm nine in my pockets, therefore I'm happy to keep on doing it. And that's when we need government bodies and we need the correct people. To step in and to put manners on those type of people. And that is happening. And again, the only way that I'll really happen is when, if there's a push from the general public, which again is happening, people are more aware of the planet and more aware of the fact that unless you push and unless you, you fight back and ask questions, people will just keep on throwing products at you and will keep on producing stuff in such a way that is, is quite simply not good for the planet and you know, therefore leads to a very unhealthy environment. Like it's across all spectrums. Green energy for, yes, for your home and your whole home building. But also like, you know, electric cars are certainly a big push. How these manufacturing plants get their energy, where, where it comes from, these are definitely questions that are being asked at the higher levels. And we now have people who are moving into management level who have a conscience, yes, to create a profit, but to do it in an environmentally friendly way. And only with that situation in place can we actually realistically expect this to happen. But it is there and it is happening. And people are talking about me and you're talking about. Now we could very easily come in here and just spoke about how to make profit in construction. But no, we're, we're doing, we're doing what I think is the right thing. We're opening up the conversation and we're trying to, we're trying to talk these things through, you know.
[00:50:50] Speaker A: Yeah, and it's when you talk the things through that you start to think about the ways that you can make a difference. Obviously there are things that can be done in the planning stage of construction. So making things more energy efficient, making sure that buildings are properly insulated. There may be solar panels on the roof, all of those sort of things. Then there's the materials that are selected. And again, that will change over time as new rules come in and certain things won't be allowed to be used anymore. But before that, there's choice. So builders can choose to pick things that are greener than other options. And then there's the machinery that's used. And I know that, I think it was a couple of years ago in Norway. They announced that they had come up with what they thought and certainly probably was the world's first zero emissions construction site. They use mainly electric machinery and that's going to be a big thing. You mentioned electric vehicles, but the machinery that's used day by day on construction sites is going to shift more towards electric.
[00:51:54] Speaker D: Yeah, absolutely. And these things do Take time. Because, like, again, just being totally honest about it, the first battery tools that came out, it was great that they were there, but they weren't actually capable of doing the job for long periods of time. Obviously the technologies are improving and getting better and therefore that's a small hand tool. So when you move that up again, like, I, I've, I've seen videos of an electric bulldozer and electric diggers and things like that, and it's, it's, it's brilliant to see that these things are coming in, but they do take time. Even the electric cars, you know, are taking time to come in. And bio fuels as well, you know, the hybrid cars, all of these things are starting to come in and they're coming in at a decent rate now. And in construction, there's no doubt about it, again, it's been government driven and it's been driven in the right way in terms of there's tax incentives and there's grants available. And look, if it makes sense on a monetary basis, well, then builders and homeowners will start doing it. But like, if you, if you were to start saying you've got to use product B because it's more efficient, but it's going to cost you twice as much, but some people simply cannot afford that. So, you know, in fairness to, to a lot of government and world agencies, they are, they are given incentives to make sure that the, that the correct products or the more efficient products are at a similar cost to the products that are already out there. And that's what we need because it has to make sense not only on a conscious level, but also on a monetary level. But we are being pushed because of, as I said at the start there, the EU have put these incentives in place. And not only incentives, they've got fines for countries if they don't reach certain targets. But the good thing about all of this is it is creating a lot of work as well. Within the construction industry, people are very busy in upgrading the insulation of people's homes. You know, air to water heat pumps are going into people's houses instead of, you know, fossil fuel and instead of some, some like, you know, oil boilers and things like that. So, and, and obviously the more energy efficient your house is, it's saving you money, which again, makes sense. Like in Ireland alone, I know that there's 75,000 homes a year and businesses that need to be operated every year. There's people in industry at the moment going, well, I want to get a part of that. I'm going to set my business up, to make sure that I can do that work for those people and therefore make some profit out of it as well. And you know what, it's all going in the right direction.
[00:54:04] Speaker A: It's exciting to hear because I've got a son. So, you know, like you with, with your daughters, you know, you're thinking, we want to make sure that we're building a better world for them, you know, and for their children. And so it goes on. And sometimes people do feel overwhelmed by this, you know, as a mentioned electric bulldozers and things. Yeah, that's a big capital expenditure and something that maybe that can't be managed straight away. But there are smaller things that can be done, just simple things like limiting the number of journeys. Can you do things in a more efficient way? If you've got a number of workers on site, can they jump in a minibus, preferably an electric one, and come to the site that way rather than all come in their own vehicles? All of those sort of things are sweet, small, but they do make a difference when everybody's doing them.
[00:54:49] Speaker D: No, no doubt about it. You're dead right. It's the accumulation that comes into it. Then, you know, if enough people are doing it, it just creates a much better environment. But again, it's about getting people to change their habits. If you can get, if you can get your habits and you can get the way you do, the way you function is, is done in a more environmentally friendly way, it's just going to work. It's because it's, it's, it's about everybody tying in together. And again, as I start, as I said right from the start, it doesn't matter where you were or where you're from. This is a battle for every single one of us. There's been huge steps taken in the right direction. There's been huge positivity on this subject and there has been huge gains made. Look, sometimes you can't reverse the clock, but you know what, you can always improve what's, what's happening going forward. And I do think that the mindset is there now. And, you know, I think that as construction workers, we're talking about, we're, we're identifying it. It takes everybody to push and it takes, you know, our choices need to be the right ones going forward. And I think if we do keep doing that, we're going to keep on reducing our carbon footprint. We're going to keep on making the right decisions and this whole thing can go in the right direction. We can all live in peace and harmony and Mad Max doesn't have to.
[00:56:01] Speaker A: Oh, it's like a Disney film all of a sudden.
Well, it's good to end on a positive there, Pete, as always, great to speak to you.
[00:56:08] Speaker D: Cheers, mate. Thank you, Siv.
[00:56:09] Speaker A: This is Constructive Voices.
[00:56:12] Speaker E: My name is Lorraine shepherd, training manager at the national association of Shop Fitters and Interior Contractors. We're a trade association and representative body for shop fitters, fit out and interior contractors. We proudly celebrated our centenary in 2019. We have members across Great Britain and Northern Ireland. You're welcome to find out more about our association by visiting www.shopfitters.org.
so we are running a very special campaign this week, the 7th to the 11th of June 2021, looking at respiratory health in our sector. We've aligned it to a very simple tagline of and breathe. The campaign focuses on raising awareness and providing relevant resources and training to hopefully prevent further cases of occupational asthma, lung disease, various types of cancers, silicosis and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, more commonly known as copd. And that's to name just a few.
What led me to looking at running such a campaign was a young construction operative I knew he was medically retired by his 35th birthday. In his words, it was seen as wimpish to be the only one wearing a mask on site. Now I cannot breathe without assistance and I cannot provide for my young family. He has an avoidable lung disease. There are some really shocking statistics out there. For example, in 2019, 2020 12,000 people in the UK died from lung diseases estimated to be linked to past exposure at work. Many, many of these deaths were entirely preventable.
I have some further facts for you. Did you know employers have a legal duty to protect workers respiratory health? Some of the most common substances known to cause occupational asthma and life changing lung disease are used in or generated by your everyday construction tasks. Soldering fumes, fumes from the solder, stainless steel, welding fumes and wood dusts. Just a few examples.
Symptoms of silicosis can take many years to develop and you may not notice any problems until after you've stopped working with the substance, which is silica. They're calling silicosis the new asbestos.
Asbestos can lead to various types of lung cancer known mainly as mesothelioma.
Silica can be found in sandstone, gritstone, quartz, concrete mortar, marble, limestone, to name just a few.
Common reported symptoms of exposure to silica dust include a severe cough, fatigue, loss of appetite, shortness of breath following physical exertion, fever and chest pains. The good news is this disease is completely preventable.
To conclude, I hope your listeners will think twice about the importance of wearing masks on site, ensuring it is the correct mask for the job at hand. Please ensure it's fitted properly. This is known as face fit, as I'm sure most of your listeners will know. Part of face fit testing is making operatives aware of the importance of the size and the fit of the mask, making sure it's the right mask and being clean shaven. We also encourage attending asbestos awareness courses and control of dust courses widely available. We would be happy to put your listeners in touch with our fully accredited approved training providers. For further information, please visit the landing page for this campaign on our website www.shopfitters.org respiratory health thank you.
[01:00:09] Speaker A: Thanks Lorraine for taking the time to tell us about that important campaign. We're always keen to help promote anything to do with health and safety and well being in the construction industry. So if you have anything like that that you're involved in, please get in touch with us or anything else that you're doing or that you'd like to hear on the podcast. We would like to hear from you. Just go onto our website constructive-voices.com don't forget the dash and you can find out all about the show and find our contact information on there as well. That's just about it for this episode of Constructive Voices. We'll be back in a couple of weeks time late in June. Thanks to all our guests this week week and thanks to you for listening. You're really helping us build something. Constructive Voices brought to you by Lewis Access British made scaffold towers and Access products.
