Everest: The Transformative Power of Nature: 8 Big Lessons from Everest with David Picton

[00:00:00] Speaker A: This is Constructive Voices. Constructive Voices, the podcast for the construction people, with news, views and expert interviews. [00:00:11] Speaker B: Welcome to today's episode of Constructive Voices. Now we're not only about the place and the things that happen within the built environment. We're also about how the places are directly connected with us as people and the creatures around us, and how that actually plays out in various ways within our lives. Today we're with David Picton. [00:00:30] Speaker A: Now, David will also be visiting you. [00:00:32] Speaker B: Again in another episode, but in this particular episode, David, who's the Senior Vice President of Safety and Sustainability at Eco Online, is going to speak to you about his visit to the Everest Base Camp and how this is a mirror for his life as it has been to other people. Also, it shows people about their pace, their fears, their dependence on others, the ability to adapt and so much more. So think about the place that you're connected with, whether it's through your work in the built environment or just your day to day life. Places that you've been to travel, the place you live and think about how it presents you with both challenges and opportunities. David has had the chance to present to the EU on the Sustainability Development Goals and he has also received the Queen's Award for Sustainable Development. So just relax now and tune into something that hopefully will connect with you on various levels. [00:01:22] Speaker C: Yeah, thanks, Jackie. My name is David Pickson. I'm the Senior Vice President of Safety and Sustainability at Eco Online and yes indeed, I'd love to talk to you this morning about, about Everest and Everest Base Camp. Very special place for me in the world. [00:01:34] Speaker A: Fantastic. Now just briefly for the people who would like to hear you in both of the podcasts, talk to us just about your own expertise with the company and what we can expect also to hear on that podcast. [00:01:47] Speaker C: So I've been with the team here for about four and a half years now. We're a technology company with software focused on protecting people and the planet. We've been around for nearly 25 years now, so we've got a fair bit of experience. We're focused specifically on the environment, on health, safety, chemical management and climate solutions like greenhouse gas accounting, net zero, climate risk. I'm going to be talking about those areas, really talking about some of the challenges, some of the lessons we've learned from our customers and best practice. I've worked in sustainability for the past 15 years or so. I was previously a Chief Safety and Sustainability Officer, had the honour of presenting to the UN back in 2016 on the Sustainable Development Goals and also managed to achieve the Queen's Award for Sustainable Development. So I've been really lucky to see sustainability, its very best and work with some great industry partners as well. Well, over the years. [00:02:33] Speaker B: Okay. [00:02:34] Speaker A: I mean, you do have indeed a fascinating background. But that's more so for the other podcast I was very curious about, you're going to choose an unusual location when it comes to, you know, a place that you obviously want to talk about. And in your case, it is the Mount Everest Base Camp. Let's talk first of all, David, about why you've chosen that. [00:02:54] Speaker C: Yeah, indeed. Everest Base Camp was a destination, I think, and a bit of a journey for me in a sense. So about a year ago, I was just over 3 miles higher than where we are now, staring up at that highest point on earth, you know, a real summit, if you like, and a bit of a metaphor in a lot of ways for journeys that people want to go on. They say, this is my Everest, if you will. I'd wanted to go to Everest Base Camp itself since I was young, not necessarily to climb the mountain, but just to get to that Base Camp area, which is the launch pad for so many of those dreams and hopes and ambitions. But, you know, it's nearly 18,000ft up in the sky. It's an 80 mile return track. So it's not easy. There's a lot of risk around 1 in 3 don't make it. And I was curious to see whether I could make it. So it was a bit of a challenge I set myself, it seems, from. [00:03:35] Speaker A: What you're saying, it was a challenge, a personal challenge. The symbolism of getting there and being able to do it, and at the same time that physical terrain was mirroring those inner feelings. [00:03:47] Speaker C: Yes, indeed, Absolutely right. I think I had read so many things and watched films and documentaries and seen so much there, but even then I couldn't have possibly prepared myself for what I actually experienced on the track. So I had that joy of anticipating it and then it being even better than I had expected it could possibly be. So it was a win on all levels, if you like. [00:04:07] Speaker A: Okay. Now, the reason that we're doing these type of episodes at Constructive Voices is we want to show the connection between people and places. And what do you feel from the conditions and the experiences and the reality of the trek that you did? David, what do you feel about that? How it affected you as a person and what maybe you can, you know, teach others about our environment? [00:04:28] Speaker C: Yeah, indeed. I think I would. It's a bit of a cliche sometimes, but I would genuinely call it Life changing. It was something that will live with me forever. And fundamentally, of course, it's beautiful. You know, you're climbing a trail. There's no roads, no trucks, no engines, nothing like that. It's very basic in a sense. So we're back to a connection with nature that perhaps we've lost in other areas of the world. And you're climbing this fantastic trail, beautiful trail beside this milky green, white Koshi river, the glacial meltwater that's flowing down through the valley. And you're climbing in the early stages through trees, you know, through pine forests, rhododendron groves, villages. There's just yaks, donkeys, sherpas around you. It's nature at its best in a lot of cases, and it hasn't changed for many, many years. But some of the accommodation itself is good but very basic. Sometimes as you get higher up, you have ice on the windows, there's no power, no lights. In some cases, you've got a sort of thin mattress and plywood walls, which is interesting when people are snoring just a couple of inches from your ear on the other side, you know. And in some of those places, although you're very grateful for the shelter, you know, you've got just a couple of holes for toilets to share between people on a hallway. No showers, no running water. But what made me smile one day was there was a. We were in one of these very basic shelters, just resting after another hard day's trekking. And there was a. A couple using their phone and Google Translate to try and sort of communicate with the lodge manager and, and said they wanted to. To see a deluxe room. And they insisted that they would be shown a deluxe room. That's what they know they wanted. And he. He tried to explain by entering into their phone, this was it. This is the deluxe room. And they made him open another six rooms before he finally accepted the reality that this indeed was deluxe. And we smiled. People's various perceptions. [00:06:15] Speaker A: I can imagine that going through the accommodation, which obviously was deluxe, even though it wasn't the kind of deluxe people are normally looking for. The accommodation and all the different terrains that you've already described so beautifully, that your consciousness was very alive, I would imagine. [00:06:32] Speaker C: Yes, it was. You felt incredibly connected to yourself, to other people and to all of the communities around you particularly. And I think I was certainly struck by the conscious connection I felt to those communities. [00:06:43] Speaker A: Yes, let's talk about that. Actually, David, like, I would be completely inexperienced with what kind of communities would be along that way. Can you Describe them, talk in a bit more detail how they affected you. [00:06:54] Speaker C: Yeah, indeed. I think that's one of the strong takeaways I've got that. We flew up from Kathmandu by helicopter into Lukla, a very dangerous airstrip, quite High, about 9,000ft up in the mountains. And once you start, after you get to the that airstrip, you sort of leave the real world behind, in a sense, and you descend into these communities along the trail and you're completely immersed in them. They are small villages, their houses, their little stone walls, small holdings, farms. It's an incredibly industrious place up the way, but phenomenally welcoming, kind, friendly, warm people with smiles on their faces everywhere you went. And I was certainly struck by the children that we saw that would run alongside us, keen to be involved in us, keen to talk to us in their own little way. I remember playing a little game of kickball with a plastic bottle with a little girl and she just kept kicking it back to me and I kicked it to her. When we had to move on, she started crying that we were going. So it was just incredible, things like that. And I met a fantastic old lady one day who had laid out all her little trinkets and wares on a blanket on a broken down piece of the stone wall. And I bought a couple of pieces. I'm looking at one right now hanging on my wall. And it was just incredibly industrious. They had so little, but everything they really needed. They were so hardworking and so welcoming. So those communities were a very strong impression on me. [00:08:15] Speaker A: Okay, out of curiosity, were you able to communicate with them in English or was it just more body language? [00:08:22] Speaker C: It was more body language, I think, really, and smiles and indications, really. And of course, we had a very experienced mountain guide with us. We were his 103rd visit to base camp that he'd been taking, so there wasn't much he didn't know about the trail. If we needed anything more detailed, he would interpret separate for us. Our Sherpas that were with us as well, they had very basic English, but again, our lead guide was fluent. You'd be surprised, and you're absolutely right. You can get so much meaning across just with a smile or with some indications or with some hand gestures, you know, so you were able to communicate very effectively anyway. [00:08:53] Speaker A: Now, going back to the environment, David, how do you feel it affected you whilst you were there? [00:08:57] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that was probably my abiding impression. That's what made the most impact on me. I reminded myself the importance of lifting my heads and Looking around, you know, at the scenery and the beauty. Some days, and on a regular basis, we were trekking hard. It was a lot of time looking down at our boots or hunched over my poles, and I was just, every now and again, lifting my head and was absolutely overwhelmed by the beauty of the. The Everest Base Camp Trail and the region. It's rocky, it's dangerous, it's dusty and loose ground. So you've got to put your feet carefully, you know, so you're careful when you're walking. It's tough climbing. You're breathless a lot of the times. But every now and again, I would lift my head and look around and I would see something like Amadablam, which is one of the iconic mountains around there, around about 8,000 meters high. So we were already at 4,000 meters, pretty much higher than most of the Alps in Europe. Most of the skiing I've done, you know, and all the sorts of mountains I'm familiar with, we were already at that height. We had another 4,000 meters of mountain above us. Really, it was like CGI, like a film set. And some days you just had to surrender to the majesty of it all and see things you'd never seen before and probably never will again. [00:10:04] Speaker A: Okay, so, yeah, like a soft fascination that nature is kind of blending into to yourself almost. [00:10:13] Speaker C: You felt at one with it, really. And I know that might sound like a cliche, but, you know, I enjoy walking, I enjoy nature, I enjoy the countryside. But being immersed in the Everest trail is like no experience I've had before. You genuinely feel a strength from those mountains all around you that will live with me forever. [00:10:29] Speaker A: It's just amazing. Yeah. But I can imagine it to be true as well. Obviously, with the terrain, it's going to trigger, apart from the attention to detail that you've already described very well to us, the need for collaboration. Because you know you're going to need to feel that you can trust and rely on the others around you. [00:10:46] Speaker C: Yes, indeed. I learned a lot about relying on others when we made this journey. Now, I'm quite a significant introvert, so I take my energy from within. I recharge alone. I spend a lot of time in my head, and I can convince myself that I don't need other people at all. I could not have done this without other people. And I learned this huge amount about teamwork and the power of the group. There was five of us in the group that went up. One of them was my very close friend who I've known for 25, 26 years. But the other three, we didn't know, we'd never met them before we made the journey. But within days we became absolutely essential to each other because there are some significant health risks along the way. So it's important to sort of talk about food and snacks and remind us to drink. Watching out for the signs of altitude sickness which can creep up on you, take you by surprise, keeping up spirits, playing cards in the evening. And one of the lads, Tom, that we were climbing with, we already knew it was his birthday while we were on the trail. And weight is crucial, so you can't take anything that, you know, you don't need up there. You're really severely restricted on weight. But I took a small card and a little birthday banner, if you like, you know, so that we could sing him happy birthday, you know, the whole lodge joined in that morning at breakfast. While we were singing that evening, incredibly out of Nowhere, the Sherpas, 14,000ft up in the sky. Mind you managed to produce an incredible chocolate cake to have a birthday cake with Tom. So that connectedness, that togetherness and the collaboration, just every single day there were little things that just made you realize how vital that is. [00:12:13] Speaker A: What an amazing experience. It really is amazing, David. One of the other things that came to my mind when I was, you know, obviously researching for our chat today was I have a terrible problem with heights. And of course you're dealing with high suspension bridges that are spanning hundreds of feet, you know, across deep ravines. How was that? [00:12:30] Speaker C: They really are something special, like you. I mean, I've got a challenge with heights, I'm okay with heights, but I'm not a fan of, you know, being unsupported or standing above a ravine. And that's what we were, you know, these suspension bridges are the only way to get up the trail. There is no alternative, no way round them. So you'll round a corner or something and there will be a deep ravine with a long hundreds of foot suspension bridge just stretched across it. And it's got a low sort of waist high wire just protect you at the edge. You're looking straight down through mesh and through boards. So three, 400ft to a crashing river down below you. And you think, well, I'm going to get across this. I should just walk across. I shall fix my eyes on the far distance and we'll get there. But it's swaying in the wind as you get across, it's rocking and swaying. And just as you get about midway across, that's when the donkeys and the yaks and the Sherpas start from the other side. And so you meet in the middle and you find yourself having to somehow shimmy around them or duck underneath them, because those animals, they just keep going. And that was quite something. The experience of, you know, building that trust, if you like, that the bridge was going to hold, you were going to be okay, you would get to the other side. But, yeah, that. That really was quite incredible, especially when you think, well, everyone that we go over, we've got to come back on the way back. [00:13:48] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. You mentioned the donkeys and the Sherpas. You know, what was it like? I mean, the reliance that you also had to have on those animals and on the Sherpas, who I'm imagining just are much more at ease with that environment than, you know, the people like yourself visiting. [00:14:04] Speaker C: And that's some of those strong memories from the trail as well. The animals, the donkeys, everything has to be carried. I think that was a big lesson, which sounds obvious now, but you kept reminding yourself that everything you saw around you as you climbed up that trail had been carried there by an animal or by a person. So it was an incredibly vital part of the communities and a traffic jam, if you like. Some days was a pile of donkeys just sort of queued up and you couldn't go through them. But one day, Smilers, I remember this. We were stuck in a yak train. The yaks, big animals as well, you know, big, big, beefy animals, really. And, And. And you. We were stuck in them because that they'd sort of come to a bit of a choke point in the train. You couldn't. You couldn't move left or right or go back or forward because we were in them. So we were just walking with them. And we coined the phrase that day that today we move at the pace of the slowest yet. I think this idea that sometimes we're trying to push the pace of something at work or push the pace in life or clear things off our list, but some days just have to accept the pace of life, and that was a big lesson that day. But the Sherpas, I think, were the heroes and the heroines of the trail, really. They seem to carry almost impossible loads. Surreal things as well. You know, you see them carrying a couple of front doors on their back or huge lengths of wood or gas cylinders or just incredible things. We saw them carrying a fridge. Absolutely. And, you know, as I said, there's no roads or vehicles, so they're just. They're just walking over the same land with Trainers on and a little stick, usually with some Nepalese pop music in there playing off their phone as well, just to give them a little bit of a lift along the way. So, yeah, they carry huge loads with bent backs and really were the engine room, if you like, of everything we saw. [00:15:42] Speaker A: Like, you're painting such a fascinating. And I think, you know, you've said life changing in a way that it seems like a cliche, but, you know, obviously when you go into a terrain like that and you go through those experiences, of course it's going to be life changing. But what were, David, from your own perspective, the main physical and mental challenges of it? [00:16:01] Speaker C: Yeah, indeed. I mean, you had to be fit to tackle the trek. And I had trained and I keep fairly fit, but I'd really amped up my training then. But even then, it was a massive challenge, and that was both in my body and in my mind as well. I was curious to see if I could make it and wanted to sort of understand what my limits were, really. Absolutely. Found them. On the trail, we spent a lot of the time, particularly when you get above the tree line, masked up against this sort of blasting wind and dust, because there's nothing to stop that racing along the valleys, you know, once the trees. You're too high for trees, if you like. So I spent a lot of time with my mask over in my face and trying to protect me with my eyes and hair and what have you. My sinuses were bleeding for three weeks afterwards. It was really, you know, tough stuff, really. And three days before we got to base camp, we were at about 14,000ft, I suppose, and to be honest, I was pretty destroyed, really. I was surprised how bad I felt. My head was splitting like it was in a vice. I was dizzy, quite exhausted. And then at night, when you were trying to get some rest, it was very difficult to breathe and sometimes you would awake in a bit of a panic because you just couldn't get your breath. And I think that one particular night, the next day at breakfast, we decided to take the drugs for altitude sickness. It's called Diamox. Pretty serious decision, you know, because obviously it changes the structure and physiology of your blood. You lose some of the sensation in your fingers and your toes. So it's not a drug you take easy, it's not like a paracetamol. But it kept us in the game, you know, it helped us to make that final push. And when we actually got to the final day with about six hours to go to base camp, honestly, I couldn't Eat, because it takes away your appetite. I couldn't speak, I couldn't think anything was funny or humorous. I had no lightness, if you like. I was pretty much utterly spent, really. And that's when you had to dig very deep, but just put one foot in front of the other, you know, and just keep going. So it did absolutely define my limits. And that was both a question of physically what you were capable of, but also mentally making sure. You just say, I'm going to do this. But it was hard. [00:17:57] Speaker A: But you have no regrets. I can imagine you must have felt, I don't want to use the word elated in a light way, but when you got back to your normal life afterwards, you must have felt a changed man. [00:18:07] Speaker C: Yeah, I did that. First month or so after we came back, it was very hard to process the ordinary, everyday world around us. I was in the military for 20 years and I came back from combat tours and found that. That hard as well. It's just dropped back into ordinary life. And the feeling was similar to that, in a way. He'd lived such an extreme life, an extreme set of experiences for, you know, a number of weeks, in this case, that it was very difficult in a way, just to leave it behind. And to be honest, I don't think I ever will. There's a little bit of it that lives in me every day. [00:18:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I can imagine. I can really imagine that there is. So I don't want to move away from that. But we do need to talk about the sustainability efforts to protect the mountain and keep it clean for future generations, because that's so important to what we do at Constructive Voices. And I know for yourself as well, David. [00:18:55] Speaker C: Yeah, it is. And for years, really, I'd seen a lot of media focus on Everest being spoiled and the trail being filthy. I know we've got to be really mindful of that with the pressure on the region, but I didn't see any of that and I was looking for it. What I did see was a huge effort to protect the environment. There were some fabulous innovations in the buildings and the communities along the way. Lots of use of solar power, lots of use of hydropower. One of my favourites was solar kettle. So there'd be a gigantic mirror outside the lodges with a really big kettle suspended in the middle of it. The mirror would project the sun's rays onto that kettle and, boy, they got hot. Fantastic innovations. But a couple of favourites were things like the Carry Me Back scheme. This is a project they set up where visitors can commit to carry a Kilogram of trash in a pre packed bag back down for recycling. And that's about 80,000 visitors a year to the, to the base camp. So if we all just took one of those bags back with us clipped to our back, that would be 80 tons of trash removed from the mountain. You know, a big, small actions, but a big impact overall. Our group went a little further than that. We had some youngsters, of course, so they took 14 kilos between the five of us back down the trail. But my absolute favorite, I'm looking at it now. In front of me is a little, small blue model which is a, an exact replica of the Himalayan range. And there was a project halfway up there in a place called Namche Bazaar, which was the Sagamatha waste education product. Sagamatha, you know, the traditional Nepalese word for Everest, really. And they had films, art, souvenirs and everything. And one of these souvenirs was this little plastic model. It's made up of recycled melted bottle tops, 38 in total, which is generally the amount of liters that people drink on the way up, on the way down. So there's a nice synchronicity there. And this little model is a female led project back down in Kathmandu. So when all the bottle tops get back down, that they mel into this, this Himalayan range copy and you can buy it, you can buy it as a souvenir. $30. And that money goes back then into the education, but it's delivered to your hotel in Kathmandu. So they don't even thought that bit through, not bringing it back up the mountain and wasting carbon. You know, it's actually just kept down in the city. So that's little things like that, phenomenal focus on sustainability. And there as everywhere, I think it was true that sustainability really matters. [00:21:13] Speaker A: Okay, that was very ingenious scheme that they've thought up there, isn't it? So one of the reasons, David, that I was delighted that you chose to speak about the base camp is, you know, it really does highlight how much we take for granted down here. What would your final takeaways for our audience be in that theme? [00:21:30] Speaker C: Yeah, you're right, Jackie. Indeed. Every day on the trail, there was something to remind me how much we take for granted down here, you know, sea level or wherever we live on an everyday basis. We've got most of what we need around us, I think, but everything, as a said, up there has to be carried, and it's in, in a short supply. But. But one of my favorite pictures is a very simple one that I took of A sink down here, we can wash our hands anytime we like. You know, set many, many times a day, usually as well, but. But up there, that sink of the soap, the running water that it had, that was my first chance to wash my hands in four days. [00:22:03] Speaker A: Wow. [00:22:03] Speaker C: That was. Yeah, four days of dust and grime and alcohol gel, you know, to sanitize your hands. So they were sort of sanitized, but they were feeling pretty awful. [00:22:12] Speaker A: Oh, I can imagine, exactly. [00:22:14] Speaker C: Getting them under soap and running water just felt like heaven. But, you know, my most striking memory, and I talk about this, you know, this idea of taking things for granted, really, is that one morning we were heading out on the trail. Beautiful morning, clear blue sky above us. Walking out on the trail again, sun, just feeling the warmth come into the day. And we went past a small holding. There was a little old lady in obviously traditional dress, burnt by the sun, she had. And she was scooping up yak dung from the floor and shaping it with her bare hands. So a lady in her 80s shaping yak dung into bricks that she would dry in the sun for fuel on the fire. I was just struck by that sight as we walked past. And I thought, you know, up there, they had very little, but they had everything they needed. And I never once heard any one of them. [00:22:59] Speaker A: What a beautiful last line to hear about the experience of the people there. Are there any other points that you would like to make, David, before we finish? [00:23:08] Speaker C: Yeah, just a couple of final things, I think, really. This was a project. So, you know, we deal in projects, I think, you know, in our work life and home life, DIY or whatever we're doing. So we deal in projects all the time. We plan, we prepare, and so on and so forth. But this one taught me really, that for all the planning and the preparation and the effort and the pain, if you like, it was worth it to say, I've made it. And some of the lessons I took away were that you can prepare and work at so much, but sometimes you can plan, can be curious, but just start, give it a go, you know, get stuck in and see what you learn along the way. Sometimes we have to accept our realities rather than wasting energy on things we can't change. Sometimes the realities are what they are. And I definitely learned that our limits are further than we think. We put all kinds of limitations on ourselves, but they are a lot further than we think. And I also learned to celebrate our wins. You know, that might be a small win here or there in a day or in an hour, but it's important to take note of it and celebrate it anyway. The final thing that I took away really is what I absolutely believe about life. We choose our attitudes in so many things can be negative, they can be positive, but sometimes they're one of the only things we can control is our attitude and how we process the world around us and the impact we have on others. And that's one of those life changing things I brought back from there. [00:24:22] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really wonderful. Do you feel that your brain reacted differently while you were there? [00:24:28] Speaker C: Yes, it did, 100%. I processed the world around me, my actions, my emotions, my thoughts in a completely different way. And I kept a journal. Every time I do anything big in my life, I've kept a journal and I look back now on some of those thoughts. Probably as the most obvious way as we came down from the mountain, we then had a six hour minibus ride back from the foothills from a small airfield field that we came down to and that six hour ride back to Kathmandu. The folks around me, you know, quite tired, they were all sleeping and I could not sleep. I couldn't do anything but just look around, listen to my headphones and the music that was on there and feel like I was stronger than I'd ever been and more at peace than I'd ever been. And I came back with a. We met some Buddhist monks along the way. I came back with a Zen calm, peace and centered kind of quiet that's lived with me for a very long time. [00:25:19] Speaker A: That's just, yeah, wonderful to hear but doesn't surprise me. So it's as you said earlier , David, there's two things I think I've, you know, really, really honed in on. Lots of, lots of very interesting things have been said but two things I suppose, in a way, which is that the way that you brought back part of the environment that you feel will never leave you, it's somehow with you. And the second thing was when we, when we push and depending on our attitudes, our limitations, our are way better than we expected in the first place. [00:25:48] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. Big, big lessons for life and wonderful experience to hold as well. [00:25:53] Speaker A: So listen, it's been an amazing conversation and obviously we will be talking again because you're going to be talking about your actual work in the next, in the next episode. David, thank you so much. [00:26:03] Speaker C: Thanks Jackie. [00:26:04] Speaker A: This is constructive voices.