Building Smarter, Faster & Greener – Optimised Construction with Will Frost of Saint-Gobain

[00:00:00] Speaker A: This is Constructive Voices. Constructive Voices, the podcast for the construction people with news, views and expert interviews. This is Jackie De Burca at Constructive Voices bringing you a very interesting episode where I'm speaking with Will Frost, who's the head of public sector for Off Site solutions at SAC Cobain and he's going to talk about how optimised construction methods, particularly panelised and off site solutions, can help tackle the UK's housing crisis. Now, with the government target of one and a half million new homes in five years, we explore what's standing in the way and how innovation can help bridge this gap. Will will share how solutions like Enviovent are already making a difference by speeding up build times, reducing carbon and supporting the upskill of traditional trades. It's really a fascinating chat and we're going to also look at how collaboration, smarter procurement and embracing new approaches can lead to better, faster and more sustainable homes. Now you're going to be talking to us about all sorts of very, very hot and important topics. But the first thing really Will, is could you start telling us just a little bit about your role at your company? [00:01:17] Speaker B: Yeah, so I work for Sound Command Offsite Solutions in the uk, primarily focusing on the public sector. By title, I'm the head of public sector for off site solutions and we focus on the public sector demand for housing, providing solutions through a combination of multiple brands within Sankoban to what the customer needs. [00:01:42] Speaker A: Okay, so I mean that sounds absolutely huge to a normal person. How does your job connect with like the wider house building landscape? MM&C in the UK will? [00:01:55] Speaker B: Okay, so modern methods of construction MMC is a unique terminology because the use of panelized solutions seems to be a lot more successful in the MMC industry. So for those who don't know what MMC is, it's got seven categories. So from category one right through to category seven, category one being volumetric, so completely off site, manufactured and dropped in onto the site. Whereas category 2 is more your panelized 3D type solutions which is a slightly more flexible approach. And as we've seen in the uk, climate, category one has not had a very successful history and seems to be struggling quite some when it comes to meeting housing requirements and delivering on them. So we find ourselves really looking at what we can offer from a 3D panelized solution and what uniquely places us in that is that we actually offer three types of solutions. So not just on your timber frame, we do light gauge steel and large format masonry which is a product made from Aircrete, which is another form of lightweight construction. [00:03:10] Speaker A: So for those who don't know what exactly is aircrete? [00:03:14] Speaker B: So aircrete is just aerated concrete block, which is obviously. And what a method of standard block type building. Aircrete is a lighter version of that also has a lower body carbon element to it. It's lightweight, so it's much lighter than traditional methods. But they also offer a floor to wall, floor to ceiling solution. So you get panels in 2.4 or 3 meters. It's very much a panelized solution now. [00:03:40] Speaker A: Okay, so for our listeners who are around the world, we're talking particularly about the UK today and the government have a target of one and a half million homes over the next five years. Perspective, Will, what's the biggest barrier to meeting this target? [00:03:55] Speaker B: I don't think there's one single barrier. I think it's a combination of things from the way in which they process and manage the release of funding for that sector. One of them, the other one could be the regulations and some of the clarity that's needed around some of the regulations. And also local authorities just coming together and working with housing associations. A bit closer to. I think that probably one of the biggest barriers is the lack of understanding of modern methods of construction or in this case category two specifically, really trying to understand how they measure up versus traditional and actually really seeing the benefits and clearly being able to identify what those benefits are and putting a managed value to it so they can really compare like for like. [00:04:45] Speaker A: So how can that be resolved, Will, do you think? [00:04:48] Speaker B: Well, I think it's up to the procurement and supply partners. So in our case we spend a lot of effort and energy in opening up discussions and having roundtables with those involved in the sector and engaging with them on a level to understand what they're lacking in knowledge so that we can educate and facilitate the platform for them to go and get that knowledge and understanding. More often than not it's easier to do it with a project they might be facing so we can actually show them the benefits as we're going through. Right on as early as design phase. Right through. So that they can really embrace the full effect of a category 2 solution. [00:05:28] Speaker A: So talking about the category 2 solution, will have you any examples of that that you could tell the audience about? [00:05:35] Speaker B: We launched enviovent this year which is a complete through wall solution. So that is really right through the full wrap of the panel, the building and the interior lining as well. We did a pilot project in Birmingham where we delivered 12 units and tested the limits of what you do on a Construction site. So this was particularly challenging because it was really tiny site and had quite some challenges with elevations. We could quite easily navigate around with our panelized solutions. So we could essentially cran in the solutions, deliver two units within seven days because they were attached units. So that sped the process up quite well. But then also having the full control of the supply chain from one single source really helped with delivering to the timeline that was allowed. And even the construction industry, you know, when we've got weather, we've got weather, and that really plays a part on things. Having these solutions really do actually claw back a lot of the time, but can be adjustable enough to mitigate some of the impact. [00:06:42] Speaker A: Another part of there are so many interesting challenges at the moment. Another one of those is the skills and labor shortages that obviously have been faced. And they're very well documented and, you know, pretty serious. How do you see MMC helping to bridge that gap, Will? [00:06:57] Speaker B: Well, it's actually quite a sad one that we're losing all those skilled labourers and artists really in what they're able to do with their hands. And what we've been doing is really trying to get out there and educate and train them to sort of, I don't want to say upskill, but essentially we're equipping them and empowering them to adopt a modern method of construction within their businesses so that they can apply the same methodology but not have as much pressure on the workforce side of things. So you can essentially have a smaller gang of workers per unit or per project. So, you know, we can really assist with bridging the gap between the skills. Essentially. In my opinion, skilled laborers on sites understand construction, understand the kind of build that they're doing, and to lose that would be a pity. So if we could help educate them and train them to a level where they could adopt MMC methods, then that's one way of doing it. [00:07:59] Speaker A: Sure. I mean, it's no different in a way than a person who works on a computer or like I do in a production scenario. You know, we all have to upscale as technology evolves, don't we? It doesn't really matter what walk of life unless you're, you know, say, just interfacing with the public in a shop or something. But, you know, generally speaking, it comes to most of us these days because things are moving and evolving so quickly, aren't they? [00:08:24] Speaker B: Absolutely. And in the case of modern methods of construction, I actually prefer not to call them modern methods of construction, but rather optimized construction. Because if you're like, you Were saying earlier we all have to upskill at some point because technology is moving and everything else around us is at a much faster pace. Especially since the world in the age of digital, you know, we need to apply the same sort of pace into the industry. And the best way to do that is to optimize right from your procurement partners all the way through to the end. From a manufacturing point of view, how can your manufacturers optimize their production better? So we can reduce waste, so we can reduce time and work safer. Ultimately it is an interesting time because that has been forced on the market for too long. It's been based on a traditional mindset and now it's changing. [00:09:14] Speaker A: It is obviously quite rapidly. Talking about your upskilling of the traditional workforces, that would have been something that was at play in enviovent as well. Was it? [00:09:27] Speaker B: Yes, indeed it was. There's many benefits to these types of solutions and one of those is not throwing someone in at the deep end. The kind of skills required is more of an advancement on their knowledge and current understanding of an install. It's also taking away some of the risk and time factors around that. So in the case of enviovent being able to after them fabric a shell, a superstructure, so to speak, with weather tight capabilities provided all the ancillary trades come along like windows and roof tiles, you can speed that process up dramatically and freeing up them more time to go and do more work. [00:10:09] Speaker A: Okay, so just as a direct comparison, what would you say time wise traditionally would be X amount of time and then with optimized construction as you refer to it would be what amount of time? [00:10:22] Speaker B: So I've got a current example that I can share. A client of ours managed to identify that by utilizing a system like nvuevent save up to six weeks on their standard build program which if you work on your known labor rates out there's a significant cost saving on labor time, but not necessarily losing the labor force, so to speak. [00:10:45] Speaker A: Sure, yeah. No, no, that makes a lot of sense. Are some of the hurdles and opportunities when it comes to scaling in this method of house building. [00:10:53] Speaker B: The procurement is actually quite interesting because as a member active role within the procurement chain to the sector, we have to step up. We have to really make sure that our customers and clients are getting the performance and the quality that they demand or require. From a procurement perspective, one of those hurdles really is quantifying the performance and the time to the actual budgets of the projects that they have initially MMC or modern methods construction in my case optimized construction upfront has a higher cost, but that's because the fabrics are designed in such a way that they can reduce the running costs and the long term maintenance of the building. So they offset each other rarely. But it's that initial upfront which we have to work with our customers a little bit better. And that's what we do very well, is really trying to understand their needs and really look at what it is they're trying to achieve so we can get them closest to that goal within budget. It's a tough ask because nothing's staying the same, everything's increasing. There's an economic uncertainty at the time of all these, so people are working with very minimal budgets. [00:12:03] Speaker A: Yeah, of course, that's the situation that the industry is in at the moment. There's just so many huge changes, aren't there? [00:12:09] Speaker B: There are. You know, the biggest challenge is the government wanting to produce 1.5 million homes, which is where we need to be to really make an impact on the shortage. We call it a crisis in the UK for housing. The knock on effect of that is so dire, the more you look into it, the more it becomes of an importance to really get a solution or find some way of building so that we can deliver on time. And modern methods of construction are for all that, but it's just that lack of understanding of the benefits. [00:12:41] Speaker A: Okay. So yeah, it's kind of like as you said earlier on, it's like educating various of the stakeholders along the line and looking at the fact that, you know, right now in the UK there's over a million people on the waiting list for social housing. [00:12:54] Speaker B: Yes. You know, 150 odd thousand children living in temporary accommodation. [00:12:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:00] Speaker B: There wasn't a bigger wake up call than that. [00:13:02] Speaker A: That's it. No, it is, it's just unbelievable, particularly in somewhere like the uk, you know, which is meant to be such an advanced society. So what do you think are the biggest delivery challenges for social housing providers? [00:13:14] Speaker B: I can't speak on behalf of housing associations directly, but being in the procurement chain with them, we certainly understand their frustrations on the whole process of procurement. And thankfully the new PROC is put in place to help them have more control over how their money is spent on behalf of the whole supply chain. And secondly, it really does put a bit of ownership on them to be more selective of the right solutions, the right type of materials and products that they can utilize and that's the case. They need to take more control over what they're trying to deliver. [00:13:52] Speaker A: Okay. And obviously access to funding Depends. [00:13:56] Speaker B: I try to avoid that, but that is something they do struggle with. And yeah, more money is being released to them. And you know, when you look at the funds being released to the amount of houses, there's still a disconnect in trying to quantify and make that balance. I think we calculated in a roundtable discussion that to really hit that, you're looking at somewhere closer to the 5 billion pound mark. I understand that things have to be staged in and things like that, but if we're going to tackle the problem with these million people on a waiting list and 159,000 children living in temporary accommodation, we need to be much more fast and aggressive. [00:14:34] Speaker A: Now, looking ahead, Will to future home standard, what kinds of design or material choices do you see as crucial for compliance, especially at scale? [00:14:45] Speaker B: So we have an eHome2 project in Salford University that was specifically designed and built in a chamber to test variances of how the house should perform and what kind of elements we need to adjust and when we adjust them, how does the house perform? It all starts for me with the fabric. So future home standards fabric performance hasn't changed, so it's still at a 0.18 U value and that's what most will be building towards that minimum. But what we're hearing from our client base and certainly the market set is they're needing to have better performing fabric to complement the way in which they can heat houses. And the reason they need the better performing fabric is to maintain that and manage it better. You know, it's a case of social housing sector, you're putting very advanced technology into a place to heat it and there might be someone who doesn't understand that technology and it could end up costing them more to run. So it really is about addressing your fabric design for manufacture would be the first and foremost. So engaging with a procurement manufacturer partner at design stage so that we can factor in elements of performance for that building as early on as possible can mitigate quite a lot of the frustrations. [00:16:05] Speaker A: So obviously looking at the effects on the environment is one huge factor. The other is warmer houses that are cheaper to run are particularly important for people who are on lower incomes. How will does something like a complete external wall solution help make that a reality? [00:16:26] Speaker B: Well, MD event is unique in that it's come from a single source, it's combined with multiple Sankoban products. It has been thoroughly tested. You know, we've carried out number of testings on this, right from acoustics, fire resistance impact testing and that's the thing. So when you're getting the fabric or the superstructure. It has and does meet the criteria to last and accompany the goals of the client in terms of having something that's going to assist with those issues they have with running costs and things like that. [00:17:01] Speaker A: Now we can't avoid net zero goals in the world that we're living in at the moment. Net zero targets are really pushing everybody in the sector to rethink how we are building. How do you feel house builders can reduce embodied carbon while still delivering at the necessary speed and volume? [00:17:18] Speaker B: Well, it's natural to use as many low carbon embodied materials as possible. We look at NGO event for example, in terms of the embodied carbon with a timber frame is much lower than that of traditional build. You know, that reduces it between. I believe it's between up to 70% reduction in that. So yeah, it is absolutely important that we find ways to deliver homes that are better for the planet. If we look at future home standard, the target is reducing it 75 to 80% reduction in carbon compared to homes built into 2013 for homesick as approved in document link. So in the event, for example on the reduction of the embodied carbon emissions, approximately 20%, if you break it down into just the fabric first and then there's all the complementary wraps and installation elements that can lower that even further. [00:18:16] Speaker A: Of course there is a fair bit of discussion around the sustainability of timber. What's your own view on moving away from virgin timber and what alternatives are you personally excited about? [00:18:29] Speaker B: It's really interesting question because you know, at this point in time virgin timbers is needed just because of the, the lack of availability of structural alternatives out there. But the modern advancement in wood fibers combined with plastics and things like that seems to be gaining quite a bit of traction. So I'm quite excited to see some of the developments that have been made with the use of bamboo in a structural beam type setting because obviously, you know, it's all good looking for alternative solutions and we need to. But they have to be able to perform and keep the inhabitants safe. [00:19:06] Speaker A: So do you have any particular examples of bamboo use that you've encountered in your work? [00:19:12] Speaker B: I've seen it being utilized and reconstituted into a really good high density structural beam which is also lightweight. [00:19:22] Speaker A: It has amazing properties. Doesn't does. [00:19:25] Speaker B: And you know, my previous background being in timber technology, we came across it quite a bit just because of its ability to grow faster and to supply a variation of strengthening properties. But also its lower carbon is outstanding. So at this point we haven't seen any use of the bamboo timber solutions in a construction way purely because I think the costs aren't going to be there just yet. But it's one to watch out for definitely. [00:19:56] Speaker A: Now going back to the likes of the local authorities will housing associations who are considering what's traditionally called MMC and you obviously call it optimized construction, what would be the one piece of advice you would offer to help them to take the next step? [00:20:14] Speaker B: I would say reach out to your procurement partners, your supply chain and find out what sort of performance related testing they can certify and guarantee on modern methods of construction. These solutions like Enviovent are purposefully designed to speed the process up on site, to offer a very good solid performing house but also to complement its maintenance thereafter. So really get to understand the solutions that you are interested in venturing down and make sure that they are performing to a level that you're expecting them to and that they can be backed up. [00:20:52] Speaker A: The famous year that a few years ago seemed way off in the distant future, 2030, which is five years away right now as we're recording in 2025, what does success look like in terms of house building sustainability and social housing? [00:21:09] Speaker B: 1Amassive reduction in the amount of people waiting for homes to a bit more of a commitment from local authorities and government to the use of modern methods of construction and that becoming the norm. You know, I think we are past the point of return for trying to save traditional methods of build and we just really need to focus in on what is currently performing in the market and making sure that come 2030 we're hitting the targets. That's the ultimate level of success, isn't it? When you're able to actually hit the target target with quality and proper performing buildings, then that's it. [00:21:47] Speaker A: That's it. That's absolutely it. And hopefully, hopefully if we're talking again in five years time we'll be able to pat each other on the back and say that well that was actually achieved. Is there anything else will that you feel you'd like to add, you know, to cover that we haven't covered during our talk, our talk today? [00:22:05] Speaker B: I'd just like to really stress on solutions like Enviovent they're specifically designed and you know, Sankoban has thrown a lot of resource into putting things together to offer the market a good solution, a really viable solution that they can have confidence in. We've delivered it, we've tested it, we've backed it with certification from all angles. So you know, it really is something to think about when you look at Monetis, forget trying to understand and justify what the initial outlay is, but most importantly, the people that are going to live in that house. And it's been built with an Envio van. You've got a product solution there that is really going to do what it says. [00:22:52] Speaker A: Okay. I mean, that's obviously the most important factor. And the fact that, as you've said earlier on, Will, we're talking about time frames that are entirely different. So that makes the reality of achieving these very challenging targets to be something that we could maybe consider absolutely fantastic. It was brilliant to talk to you, and I feel I learned really a lot today. Will, thank you very much for your time. [00:23:19] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. [00:23:20] Speaker A: Thank you very much. This is constructive Voices.