Decarbonising Heat with Dr. Alex Mellor of Naked Energy

[00:00:00] Speaker A: This is Constructive Voices. Constructive Voices, the podcast for the construction people with news, views and expert interviews. Good afternoon, this is Jackie De Burca for Constructive Voices. I'm with Dr. Alex Mellor who's the Director of Engineering at Naked Energy. Now he's pursued his lifelong passion for solar energy. He's authored two patents and 21 published papers on PVT technology, high efficiency PV, off grid systems for rural areas and PV for space power, as well as a book on quantum solar cells. Now I can. Before welcoming you, I can say I have lived in a rural area with an off grid system, so would love to know more about that. But just introduce yourself, Alex, to begin with, please. [00:00:48] Speaker B: Sure. Hi Jackie. Really, really nice to meet you and thanks so much for having me on your on your podcast. My name's Alex Mellor. I've been a lifelong environmentalist and always had a passion for science and technology. Sort of something of an activist, even when I was back at school. And then when I went to university, I realized that if I chose the right course, I had the opportunity to marry my passions for science, technology and environmentalism. So I studied mathematics and physics with a view to going into renewable energy. I chose to have a year in industry as part of my degree course. And if anyone here is thinking of going to university, they offer a year in industry. I'd really recommend it. It's a really good way to get started, particularly if they let you choo. Where to go. I found a small PV cell research and manufacture facility in Northumberland in the north of England and I went to did my year internship there. It was called NAREC at the time, they're now called Solar Capture Technologies. I had a really great experience there and I thought I love research, I love, I love PV solar energy. So I found a PhD in Madrid where I could go and work on high efficiency PV cells, looking particularly at really high efficiency concepts. You know, how to get to 50% electrical efficiency using kind of optical light trapping and device physics. Really enjoyed that. I became a research associate. I then went to Imperial College where I was a research fellow looking at other novel concepts in PV cells. And I started getting interested in PVT and particularly optical coatings for pvt. At that time I was lucky enough to meet Naked Energy where I'm working at the moment. They had a joint project with Imperial College. We worked together on that project and I like the company, the company obviously liked me, so I went to work with them. I've been at Naked Energy now for six years. I'm now director of Engineering, I didn't start that way, but I started working on the product development. We went into commercial phase. So I very quickly became part of a fledgling sales team, set up a kind of a customer journey so we could identify the right kinds of users of solar, heat and PVT technology and take them through a journey. They could see if our technology was right for us. We then hired a proper commercial team, which I was glad of, so I could go back into the technical area. And I now work on a development of the product, a development of our design and monitoring software, and also integration of our technology into building. So that's a, that's a kind of brief introduction into my career, which is excellent, Alex. [00:03:08] Speaker A: And I guess for some of our listeners, some of the jargon you've used is going to be a little bit like, okay, that sounds really interesting, but what was that? So as we go through, I suppose our conversation, maybe try and bring it into like an average person's lingo for some of what you've said. Naked Energy, obviously it's known to be at the forefront of solar innovation. Can you share the company's mission, Alex, and what you feel sets it apart in the renewable energy landscape? [00:03:38] Speaker B: Absolutely. So we're really focused on decarbonization of heat. So, you know, when a lot of people think of renewable energy, they're really thinking of renewable electricity. Yeah. So if you think of wind power, pv, solar power, these are ways of generating electricity from, from the wind and the sun. But actually most of the energy we end up using, we don't use as electricity, we use it as heat. Electricity and transport, you know, those are the three main ones. And about 50% of primary energy, we end up using it as heat. So that heats to heat, you know, the spaces that we occupy. So at home or at work, it's to heat the hot water that we, we bathe and shower in and use for sanitation, and it's to heat industrial processes so, you know, to make the things that we use. So about 50% of primary energy and therefore of greenhouse gas emissions are to generate some sort of heating or cooling. So that's really what we're, we're aimed at. And we do that through our solar products, which generate solar heat and solar electricity. So we're attacking both the heat and electricity with our solar products. What, what sets us apart? I mean, we, perhaps less usually for a solar heat technology, we really aim at kind of large heat users. So it's, it's commercial and industrial buildings rather than individual homes. So, you know, we Felt there was a gap there and something that was really well served by, by solar heat and power. And we, we designed our technology about how to best deliver for those commercial and industrial end users of heat. And we designed a technology with a very high energy density on the roof. So it's all about, you know, our customers, they have high heat use, high power use, limited space on the roof, and they want to generate as much as they can with the roof space they have. So we really designed the technology, the, you know, the optics, the heat management, the electrical management, so that we could get the maximum amount of useful energy out of that roof space. And that's what I'd say sets us apart from other, other solar technologies. [00:05:38] Speaker A: Are you referring to the Virtue technology, Alex? [00:05:41] Speaker B: Yes, that's correct. So we have two technology families. Both are called Virtue. So one's called Virtue Hot, that's a thermal only product. So it generates solar heat up to 120 degrees Celsius. And the other is called Virtue Pvt, and that's a hybrid unit. So it generates both heat and electrical power. So the PV is for voltaics, you know, think PV panels and the T is for thermal. So it's pvt, photovoltaic thermal. It generates both electricity and heat. And of course, you know, most buildings need both types of energy, so it's very well suited to them. [00:06:14] Speaker A: So let's just explore a little bit in layperson's terms, Alex, the first one, the Virtue pv, how exactly does this work? [00:06:22] Speaker B: Certainly, so it's Virtue PVT and Virtue Hot. So the Virtue pvt, you have a string of PV cells, you know, they'll convert sunlight to electricity with about 23% efficiency, which is a standard conversion rate for a PV cell or a PV panel. So if you think of a normal PV panel, it will convert about 20 to 25% of sunlight to electricity. So you've got another 75% there. And what's happening to it? So a small amount is reflected, but most of it is just heating up the panel. So the normal PV panel, most of the sunlight actually just heats the panel and then that heat is lost to the environment and you just have a loss of that useful sun's energy. What we do in our PVT units is we have a string of 12 PV cells and we run a heating. We have a heat exchanger behind the cells with a fluid channel. So we're taking the heat off of the cells that was a byproduct of the electricity generation. We're taking the heat off of the cells and Then putting that down into the building for, you know, useful heat uses. So the things I mentioned earlier, space heating, hot water heating or industrial process heat, uniquely we have the PV cells and the heat exchanger inside an evacuated tube and that's to keep all of the heat in. So we don't want to lose any heat to the environment. We want it all going into that fluid channel that's then taken into the building. And that's what allows us to operate at temperatures up to around 75C in terms of the PVT, which means we can do, you know, sanitary hot water, low temperature, industrial process heat, which, which makes up a very large part of global heat use. So it's allows to get a good market penetration and really attack real applications of heat in the virtue hot product, that's a thermal only product. So instead of the PV cells we have what's called a selective absorber coating. And that's very absorptive to sunlight, but it doesn't emit very much radiation. So you have, as well as reducing the convective loss, evacuated tube, you're also reducing the radiative loss through that. So that's heat only, but it generates it in higher quantity and at higher temperatures. That one goes up to 120 Celsius. And both of the products have a very unique geometry using an integrated reflector, which means we maximize the energy density on, on, on an industrial commercial flat roof in particular. [00:08:36] Speaker A: What are the specific challenges, Alex, would you say that naked energy overcame to achieve the high carbon savings ratio that occurs with virtue? [00:08:47] Speaker B: Thank you. So there's a number of elements to it. One is the design and particularly the optical design. So you know, you can have solar that has no kind of mirrors or reflection or concentration, and you can have solar that has reflection and concentration and requires you to move and track the sun. Now we didn't want to have any moving parts, so we wanted to have no tracking, no, no following the sun, completely static. And the reason for that is to have low cost and good reliability. So we asked ourselves the question, how can you get the most energy density out of a completely static solar technology? And it was through that optical design that we ended up at a very high energy density technology. So that was one. And the rest of the challenges, a lot of what forms the secret sauce? It's all about how to deal with vacuum and feeding through the different energy vectors in and out of your vacuum. So you've got a thermal and an electrical product inside a vacuum. You need to get the heat and electricity out. How do you do that whilst maintaining a good vacuum seal but also using low cost components and clever engineering tricks? So I'd say on a technical level those were the two main challenges. [00:09:59] Speaker A: That's a really excellent explanation. TUV certification. Alex Virtue pvt is the first evacuated tube collector to receive this. Can you explain the significance of this certification within the industry and how it enhances the credibility of your own technology? [00:10:19] Speaker B: Absolutely. The certification, it's all done around type testing to a number of recognized industry standards. So you know, the solar thermal products are the Virtue hots are solar thermal product. So that has a set of standards. The PVT is both solar thermal and a PV product, so it has to adhere to both sets of standards. So it goes through a very rigorous testing regime. Okay, so the tests, you know, there are many, many, many tests it goes through, but they fit more or less into three groups. So it's around safety, longevity and performance. Okay, so in terms of safety, they'll test to make sure it's fire retardant, that it's properly electrically insulated both in the dry and in the wet, that it can deal with surges of electricity and so forth, to make sure that it's safe on the roof and doesn't create a risk for anyone in the building. In terms of longevity, what the testing does is it aims to essentially simulate 25 years of life in the field in just a few weeks of testing. And it does that using an environment chamber where it exposes our PVT units to very extreme conditions, more extremely than you'd actually see in the field, and very quick cycling that aims to in a few weeks reproduce what would happen in, in 25 years. So you know, it's, it's temperature cycling from minus 40 to plus 85 Celsius, it's humidity freeze testing, it's extreme UV testing, it's damp heat testing. And they, they do it in specific sequences that, sequences that they know causes weak technology to fail. Right. So it's constructed in a way to make you fail unless the product is very good. Now we're the only evacuated tube PVT technology that's passed that certification. So that's a huge milestone for us. There's a third group which is performance. So of course we need to communicate to our clients how much energy they're going to save by employing our technology. And we do that using the performance data of the technology. And that comes from three third party testing at TUV Rheiland as part of that certification process. So, you know, they're not believing our data they're believing the third party certified data of the performance of our products. So it's safety, longevity and performance. [00:12:35] Speaker A: It's just an incredible and fascinating process, the whole thing, isn't it? [00:12:40] Speaker B: Yes. It took us a long time to go through it. We really had to engineer the product very carefully, understand the certification, testing, understand the different risks, make sure that the product was hard to it because you know, you have to spend a fair bit of money to do these tests. It takes a fair bit of time. When you're going to put your products, you know, they'll take about 40 products off the line at random and put them through various tests for a kind of a six month program. You want to be very sure at the beginning that you're going to pass at the end. So you try to reproduce a lot of this in your own lab where you think there's tests that are particularly difficult to pass. You try and reproduce them as best you can, make sure that you've engineered your solution so that when you finally send them to be tested, you're confident that they'll come out positively at the other end. And I'm thankful to say that we did so for customers. It gives them confidence in the longevity and the performance of the product and the safety. In certain geographies it's a legal requirement to have this certification. Not always and everywhere, but in certain instances it is. And it's almost always a requirement for subsidies where they are available. So, you know, there's no subsidies at present in the uk, but you know, in Germany we're on the BAFA list for the German subsidies. In the Netherlands we're eligible for the SD Fonshaleur. In France and all over Europe where subsidies are available, because we had the certification, we're eligible for those subsidies. And of course that's important for the customer as well. [00:14:15] Speaker A: And that really leads me nicely, Alex, on to what was going to be my next question, which is, you know, this certification must be opening a lot of doors by the sound of things, certainly in Europe and possibly around the world. [00:14:28] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. So we now have 100 live projects and I think nine or 10 different countries. I don't have the statistics in front of me, but it's more or less on that order. We've got about 15,000 of our solar tubes in the field and we're starting to scale up in the scale of projects. So, you know, when you start out with a new technology, you start doing projects of a few square meters of your product on someone's roof and then you Go to tens of square meters and then you go to hundreds of square meters. Our biggest project in the field now has a thousand of our tubes and covers, around 700 square meters. And we now have projects in in design phase that are twice the size of that. And we have projects very far in the pipeline that are 10 times the size of that. So we're starting to kind of move forward both in the number of projects we're able to do and units that are being deployed. The size of those individual projects, which is really important because as you go bigger, you can offer a better value for your end user. And also I guess the prestige of the customers we're working with. I won't name them specifically, but a lot of large hotel chains, for example, are working with us now to, to decarbonize their portfolios and a lot of well known manufacturing and food and beverage brands. So it's really exciting time to be at a Naked Energy and watch this. [00:15:48] Speaker A: This level sounds amazing. I was literally thinking how exciting this must, must be. Are you someone who dreams about your work, Alex? On a more personal note? [00:15:58] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. It's been, I mean, on a personal level, it's been kind of interesting journey for me. So, you know, starting out in academic R and D, you work on technology that has what's called very low technology readiness level. So it's kind of more blue skies, far reaching, but it's quite early in its journey. And of all the different technologies people work on in that type of an environment, you know, perhaps 1 in 10 of them or less, you know, actually ends up on a roof generating energy. And that's a really exciting space to work in. It's very stimulating. In an intellectual level, it's a great environment. But if you really want to see your work and innovation on roofs in a shorter space of time. There came a time in my life where it became more exciting to work for a startup company like Naked Energy, where we're working products that aren't the future in 20, 30 years, they're the future in six months to a year. And then actually seeing our innovations on roofs and making a contribution to solving the climate crisis in real time is really, really satisfying. So it kind of, it marries up the mission of addressing an environmental challenge with the kind of intellectual stimulation of being able to work on exciting technology and solve difficult technical problems with the personal satisfaction of being able to work with really excellent people both at Naked Energy on the technical, commercial, marketing and software side. But also the customers we work with are really exciting. They have Their missions that they're increasingly bought into. Really keen to carbonise their operations and addressing the challenge of how to do that. And if we're able to offer them part of that solution, it's extremely satisfying on all sides. [00:17:48] Speaker A: It's such a historic time. Of course, at the moment, Alex, and I guess we can probably delve into some of the names that you didn't name, but let's delve into one that's going to be really well known, at least in Great Britain or the uk. The British Library project, obviously, as far as I'm aware from research, that is the largest solar thermal project in the UK currently. Is that correct? [00:18:13] Speaker B: Yes, I mean, that's certainly our understanding and our position is we'll keep saying that until someone shows us a bigger one. [00:18:21] Speaker A: Very good. [00:18:22] Speaker B: Okay, from the research, let's delve into it. [00:18:27] Speaker A: Alex, what were the logistical and technical challenges of implementing a project of such scale? [00:18:33] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. So first it's identifying what the heat uses are and how you're going to integrate into them. So the library is really interesting. They have a reasonably high hot water demand as a large building, but they have a high summer demand for heat as well because they have a heat driven humidity control system as well as providing kind of space heating for people in the building. They need to control the humidity because of course they have all the important books and manuscripts, scripts there, of course, and they do that using a heat driven desiccant system. So firstly, understanding that and how we would integrate into it was a challenge. There was really interesting challenges around planning. That's a grade one listed building. Yeah. And of course what we're doing is building a solar array on the roof and the exterior. Now that clearly has implications for planning. The planning wasn't just done through the local council, it was all done also done through Heritage England because it's a, it's a grade one listed site. So very, very strict restrictions on what you can do there. What's a nice thing about our technology is it has very low profile, so it sits 26cm off the roof and that puts it underneath the parapet height, which means that it can't be seen from the street. So it's invisible if you walk around the library. And that's really what meant it was allowed to be installed there, given the heritage status of that building. So that was a challenge. Simply lifting all the material to roof was, you know, via a plaza that's heavily used by the public and can only be closed for a short amount of time to do that work. That was, that was very challenging. And then the final one is how to, how to pull the heat all the way through the building. So, you know, we've got the, the collectors on the roof generating heat, our virtuous solar collectors. And then about 200 meters kind of down and off to the side, you've got the plant room where you need to deliver that heat. It's, it's something like that. So getting the pipe work through all those different floors and across that distance and through venous penetrations, you know, that was a, a very large challenge. Quite a novel element there. This will be the last one, I promise. So we have, we always install a heat rejector as part of our systems. So in times where there's very little heat demand, if the collectors are generating heat, you have somewhere to put it. If it can't be put into the building. We always aim to use that very infrequently because it's just a fail safe. You know, if everyone goes on holiday for a week or something like that and they're not using the heat, but you do have to have one. And because of the heritage status, we weren't allowed to put it on the exterior of the building. So it actually is in the interior and rejecting heat into one of the internal flues and smokestacks going up through the building. So that was quite a unique solution to an interesting problem. We also used their existing pipework and heating system as additional thermal storage, which is interesting. So as well as having a large thermal store, about 15 cubic meters, because they're running a low temperature hot water distribution system. If you allow that to heat above its set point, you're also storing energy in that system, which is really interesting because it means you get that storage for free without having to install extra equipment. That was a really nice idea of the designer there. So, yeah, we delivered that project together with PBR and Convert Energy doing the, the install and KJ Tate with the lead designer, we supplied the equipment and did the initial concept for the project. It was a really nice collaboration between some very good companies and some excellent engineers. So, yeah, really, really proud to be a part of it. [00:22:26] Speaker A: So one of the things that comes to mind obviously sounds really, really fascinating and very intelligently done, but with the challenges that you've mentioned, obviously, Alex, but one of the things that comes to mind is how has this advanced the British Library's sustainability goals and what lessons can other institutions learn from this? [00:22:49] Speaker B: So they've been able to reduce their carbon BY Something like 15%, I believe. I Don't have the data in front of me. So it's part of a wider decarbonization drive. As the first phase they installed our technology and also did a free calling project alongside it and I think they'll have planned to electrify the remainder of their, well, what is now their gas use over the coming years. So yeah, we, we offer end users, you know, part of a holistic solution. So our technology will go in alongside other technologies. So you know, you can work together with a heat pump, work together with, you know, their existing gas boilers to reduce the consumption of those boilers. Quite often a, an end user will have kind of a gas powered heating system they'll want to electrify in the future. They'll want to perhaps reduce the consumption of the boiler today by installing our technology and then when they replace finally their gas boilers with electrical or a heat pump, our technology works alongside the new, you know, the new heat pump to reduce the electrical consumption of the heat pump. So it's quite nice and that allows you to, to stagger your decarbonization journey, which is what's is very interesting for a lot of event users because of course they need to balance their needs to decarbonization with their need to be economically successful year on year. And sometimes a phased approach is the way to do that. [00:24:13] Speaker A: Did any of the staff sort of comment on like this is really brilliant or different or anything? Would you get any kind of feedback from the team there? [00:24:21] Speaker B: Yes, yeah. I mean when we had contact with the actual library there at. They're very excited by the project. We're able to provide them with a nice monitoring platform as well which means they get to kind of see on their computer screens what it's generating and what's happening. Which is quite nice because it kind of makes them a bit closer to the project. You see an asset on the roof and you ask yourself what's it doing? But because we can show them in real time, these are the kilowatts, these are the kilowatt hours. This is what's happening with your system at the moment. It makes it a bit more real for them. So yeah, that was a nice feature added as well. But yeah, in general everyone I've spoke to at the library and our partners has been really, has been really pleased. [00:25:01] Speaker A: Fantastic. Now going back to the obviously the overarching topic of the decarbonisation of heat. Heat accounts for 50% of global energy emissions and 75% of that is coming from fossil fuels. How does Naked Energies technology contribute to, to Addressing this critical issue, Alex? [00:25:23] Speaker B: Yep. So it contributes as part of a new energy mix. So, you know, heat decarbonization will be a combination of different things. It will be partly heat pumps, you know, operating for, to produce hot water and also steam. It will be hydrogen in some places and a number of other sources and it'll also be solar heat. And where solar heat is really good at contributing is where you have heat users that have a heat demand in summer. So either commercial users with a lot of hot water, so particularly where people are staying, so hotels, apartment blocks, care homes, residences, things like that. And then also your lower temperature industrial process heat because they're using heat all year round. So anywhere that's using heat year round is a really good application. Application for solar heat where it can work alongside either their, you know, existing fossil fuels or alongside a heat pump or both. Contrary to popular belief, it is absolutely applicable to northern climates. So if you look at where in the world they use more solar heat than anywhere else, it's actually countries like Austria and Denmark, which surprises people because a lot of people think, oh, this can only work in, in southern Europe and Africa and, and GEC and so forth. It really is applicable in, in very northern and very southern climates as well. So it's perfectly appropriate for northern Europe, for example, and certainly for the uk. So, yeah, I think it has a really big part to play and I think because we're pushing hard on the kind of commercial industrial applications, I think we've got a good technology and a very good role to play. [00:27:06] Speaker A: Obviously, the grids limitations in electrifying the UK's heat supply make technologies like solar thermal essential. How do you see virtue complementing heat pumps in the broader strategy for decarbonizing heat? [00:27:22] Speaker B: Yep. So it can happen at a number of levels, so it can happen on the individual building level. So integrating solar heat with a heat pump works really well and there's enough as a number of different kind of integration methods you can use. And we have a number of projects in the field where they have a completely off gas system that uses a combination of our solar technology and a heat pump. So that can work really well. You can do it at utility level. So I've just come out of a meeting talking about applications for heat networks. You know, they're building a heat network now in my local town in Worthing, and solar heat can contribute there really well. So it's reasonable heat network to do maybe, you know, in a climate like the UK, you can do perhaps 20% of the requirement with solar Heat and then balance that with a heat pump or something else. If you're in Southern Europe, it could be more like 50%. So you can integrate at different levels. It can be a building level, it can be a utility level, it can be on individual homes, it can be on large commercial industrial buildings. There's lots of different integration options. [00:28:33] Speaker A: Now Naked Energy is scaling globally. Alex, what markets are you focusing on and how do you adapt the technology to different regions and climates? [00:28:44] Speaker B: Yep. So we're particularly focused on northern and Southern Europe and North America at the moment. So most of our installs to date, I'd say maybe 80% is the UK and the Netherlands, but we're starting to have good traction in Germany, in Spain and also in North America. So there's a manufacturing line starting in the US and a distribution partner there. We've had our first project at Creighton University, which is really nice. And I hope we're moving to Canada as well, because as I mentioned, there is a really good opportunity in northern climate. Our. The fact that we're an evacuated tube technology means we can operate in those northern climbs, which is really good. And we're also very hard to high radiation and temperature, so we can also operate in very southern climates. Yeah, so sorry. And I kind of talk with a northern hemisphere bent here. I mean, I mean, I mean, closer to the pole and closer to the equator are both applicable. We have slightly different mounting solutions depending on the latitude. Just because the sun angles are different. Yeah. So we essentially have. We have two types of mountain frame, one from sort of polar latitudes, you know, so either very north or very south. So northern Europe would be an example, or Canada or the northern U.S. and we have another frame for more equatorial latitudes that also allows you to manually rotate the tubes to an optimal angle. So within those two mounting types, we're able to cover anything from the equator up to, you know, 60 degrees of latitude, which is where 99% of the global population lives. So it's, it's, it's, it's very applicable to all climates. [00:30:38] Speaker A: That's excellent. Now, are there any upcoming innovations or projects at Naked Energy that you're particularly excited about? [00:30:47] Speaker B: Yes. So at project level, we're about to do a very innovative project. An industrial site in the Midlands area of the uk we're integrating with an absorption chiller to be able to offer solar cooling via our solar heating product. That's really good. That's in phase one. And then in phases two and three of that project, we're going to be Using something called inter seasonal heat storage, which allows us to generate solar heat in the summer and use it in the building in the autumn and winter by storing part of that heat in very large tanks and another part of that heat in boreholes underground. Wonderfully nice, innovative project and addresses the problem of, you know, how do you address your winter space heating demand? Using solar heat, which generates more in summer than in winter. That's really exciting. On the product level, we're now starting R and D into our next generation of products. We're looking at how to get much higher thermal efficiency in the pvt. First production tests are happening today. That's really exciting. And on the thermal only product, we're looking at improving the optical density by changing how we do the angular design of the mirror so that we can get slightly higher concentration but without the need for tracking. Still, that allows to get high efficiency, lower temperature and lower cost. So there's a couple, there's a few more on the product side, but you know, those are, those are the things that are occupying my time at the moment. [00:32:23] Speaker A: Okay, so exciting, exciting times. Obviously. Alex, what do you see as the biggest barriers to widespread adoption of solar thermal and PVT technologies and how can they be overcome? [00:32:37] Speaker B: Yep. So part of it is cultural and perception. So we had Ed Miliband to our offices when he was Shadow Secretary and we showed him a really interesting graph that he also found very interesting, which is the deployment of solar heat in different countries in Europe. And if you look at Germany and Austria and Denmark, the deployment per head is between 10 and 20 times more than in the UK. And yet if you look at these countries, the climate is extremely similar. So the climate's not the explanation. Their countries have a similar level of economic development, they have similar cultures. So there's just something that's happened there that means that perceptions of solar heat in the UK are very different to perceptions of solar heat in Germany and Austria and Denmark. So it's, how can we change those perceptions so that in countries like ours we can start to do the positive things that have been done elsewhere. And it's by offering people good, reliable technology. And we talked about the certification. It's about offering end users a proper monitoring package so that they can be confident that they're generating the energy they were promised. And in doing that, you start to create a good name for solar heat and, and make people see the potential of it. And I think we're, we're kind of making a good step into the journey towards doing that. So there's yeah, please. [00:34:11] Speaker A: Sorry, that's my fault. I was getting a bit excited there purely because I can say, you know, having been using it for five or six years here in Spain, there's nothing more beautiful than knowing that you're not doing anything except for tapping into the, the energy that is there available to us. [00:34:29] Speaker B: It's very satisfying, isn't it? And it's the distributed nature of it as well. That's very nice. It's not renewable energy that's being generated hundreds of miles away and then being mixed with all sorts of other types of energy and non renewable and then being kind of wired into you. It's happening on the roof where you are. It's very pure and democratic way of generating energy. [00:34:52] Speaker A: Absolutely it is. So moving on to the future, how do you see over the next five to ten years where Naked Energy and the renewable energy industry will be? [00:35:06] Speaker B: Yep. So as I say, I think, I think heat is the big challenge that everyone switched onto. I think that's, that's been realized pretty well in northern Europe and America. So you know, where we had to, you know, when I started at Naked Energy I felt I was having to educate everyone about, about the importance of renewable heat. Whereas now we have customers coming to us saying we need to decarbonize our heat. So that change in paradigm is happening at a fast rate, which is wonderful. And just looking at what's happening around us in terms of our clients actions, our partners actions, I really think that you had the statistic and not me, Jackie, but I can't remember how many percent you said of heat is generated by, by non renewable sources. It was in the 80s. [00:35:56] Speaker A: 50% I think it was, I think. [00:35:58] Speaker B: 50% is the amount of energy we use as heat. But I think that of that 50%, I think, I think nearly 90% of that is present. [00:36:05] Speaker A: 75. Sorry, yeah. [00:36:06] Speaker B: From fossil fuels. [00:36:07] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what it was. [00:36:08] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I can really see that coming down and yeah, with, with Naked Energy I think, I think we're playing an increasing role in that. I mean look, you know, we're, we're one of many companies and one of many technologies and everyone's making their contribution to solving that climate problem. But I can increasingly see us making an important one. [00:36:30] Speaker A: Certainly. Absolutely. So yes, it's exciting times. Obviously sometimes what we're getting through in the news. Well, a lot of the days can be a bit depressing if we don't know about these other really, really positive things that are happening. If you could give one piece of advice to policymakers or businesses who are hesitant to adopt renewable heat technologies, what would it be? [00:36:53] Speaker B: I would say look around the world and see what's been successful and what hasn't and where a country has managed to make a real success of a technology, as has happened with, for example, solar heat in Denmark and in Austria. Ask yourself why that is and try and reproduce that in your own geography and use that example to combat your colleagues who say, oh, you know, this technology isn't for here. [00:37:17] Speaker A: Perfect. Now, final thoughts. What inspires you most about your work? I think we've kind of touched on that. But, you know, what you're doing with Naked Energy, what inspires you most? And what message or messages would you like to leave with our listeners? [00:37:34] Speaker B: Sure. So for me, I kind of touched on this at the beginning. It's mission stimulation and people. I mean, that's in terms of working in that space. That's what you get out of it. Mission, solving the climate crisis, stimulation, doing that by solving difficult technical challenges. And then people, you know, the myriad of different people who are on that journey with you, both that Naked Energy and in our partners and, and with our customers. That's what makes it a really exciting space to work in and a great place to work. That's what makes me get out of bed in the morning. [00:38:12] Speaker A: And finally, I think I have to add one in for you because of some of the work that is included in your bio that's going to be included on the program page here. You do have a son, don't you? [00:38:23] Speaker B: Yes, that's right. [00:38:24] Speaker A: So that must be also very much like, you know, intermingled with all of this motivation that you have. [00:38:30] Speaker B: I mean, yes, absolutely. You know, there came a time in my life a few years ago where I've always been concerned about the environment and the climate crisis. But I think, I think at a young age it was kind of an intellectual concern. It's a concern that happens in your head. And I think in recent years, part of it's getting a bit older and part of it seeing what's happening around you, it becomes a much more emotional and visceral concern as you start to, you start to think, oh, this is actually going to affect my children and our family and what it means for them, rather than, oh, this is something that happened. You know, the concept of future generations, it seems so abstract, doesn't it? But when you start to think of it in terms of the people around you growing up, it doesn't have to be your own children, it's just you, the young people around you in your life, you start to have, I think, a more. A more visceral anxiety around what climate change means. You know, it's scary. [00:39:38] Speaker A: It is for many, many people. But the work, the work that you're involved in is so important and so inspirational. [00:39:44] Speaker B: Honestly, it's really good to be a part of the struggle. And, you know, there are so many people now who are a part of the struggle. So that's great. [00:39:52] Speaker A: That's it. So, listen, it's been really interesting, fascinating, and I really appreciate your time. [00:40:00] Speaker B: I really appreciate you having me on. Jackie, it's been a real pleasure to talk to you. [00:40:03] Speaker A: Thank you very much. Alex likes wise. This is constructive voices.