Struggling with Emotional, Physical or Financial Wellbeing? This Episode is for You

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Constructive Voices, the podcast for the construction people with news, views and expert interviews. [00:00:07] Speaker B: Hi, and welcome to Constructive Voices. I'm Steve Randall, and on this week's episode, we're talking about mental health. October is a focus for mental health in many parts of the world. And we've got a great guest for you from the lighthouse construction industry charity. He's been talking with Jackie de Burker. [00:00:23] Speaker C: Hi, I'm Bill Hill. I am the chief executive of the Lighthouse Construction industry charity. [00:00:28] Speaker A: Let's just delve into your journey as to how you arrived because your background. So, Bill, you're doing this amazing work where you are today in the lighthouse construction industry charity, but going back about 20 years or so into the early part of your career, it didn't hold any clue whatsoever that you'd be doing what you're doing today. I'm fascinated with how people's lives and the path leads to a certain place. Can you just talk us through your journey, Bill, please? [00:00:56] Speaker C: That's really strange, Jackie, because I'm quite fascinated how I ended up here as well, to be fair. I think when you get a chance to reflect on how you got to be where you are just now, you think, how the heck did that happen? And, yeah, I mean, I spent my whole life in technology, basically. I trained as an accountant and managed to escape Accountancy World, and I was in the world of technology with Hewlett Packard and Sage Plc on doing country, European and sometimes worldwide roles with them. And then it came to a point where a company I was working for, the latter part was bought by a big American outfit and they wanted me to go to the Middle East and run their operations there. And I said to my wife, let's go to the Middle East. And she said, well, you'll be on your own. And I went, okay. In the background. All through my working life, rugby is my sport. I love rugby. And I had been raising money for The Wooden Spoon, which is a children's charity or rugby. And it was just happenstance that they were looking for a CEO at a time when I was saying, well, maybe I should go do something completely different. And I took on the role of CEO of The Wooden Spoon and met all my rugby heroes over a number of years and used my business acumen to turn it around in the right direction. And then this role came up with the Lighthouse Construction industry charity. And my background as well is I was born and brought up on a little island off the west coast of Scotland with only nine people on it. My dad was the lighthouse keeper. [00:02:28] Speaker A: No way. [00:02:30] Speaker C: This is a true story. My dad was a lighthouse keeper on the island. And I thought, wait a minute, the planets are just lining up here. And I went along to the interview, wore my dad's cufflinks, my lighthouse cufflinks, and they gave me the job on the merit of my cufflinks, I think. And then here I am now, ten years in, running this charity, really loving it, and it's just strange how you end up doing what you're doing, I must admit. [00:02:56] Speaker A: It really is. Yeah, no, it's quite fascinating and I think we're going to delve into a lot of, obviously, what the work you're doing with the charity at the moment? I'm going to jump in with the statistic that was on the newsletter that came through from your team that I know lots of people are familiar with the statistic, but I'm still in shock when I read it myself. And I'm referring to the fact that every single day, working day in the UK, two construction workers take their own lives. Now, Bill, how does this compare to 2013, when you took your role there? [00:03:26] Speaker C: To be honest, Jackie, we have not moved the dials one iota. We did a major research study with the Caledonia University in Glasgow and took the statistics of suicides within our industry right back to 2011, and the dial has not moved. You're still three times more likely to see a suicide in our industry than any other industry. And if you're in a groundworker or in the trades, that is nearly eight times more likely to see a suicide in our industry than any other industry. So it's something that we are all morally obligated to do something about. And to be fair, the industry is now sitting up, it's taking notice, and we're driving some significant programs to try and change these terrible statistics. [00:04:18] Speaker A: They are shocking statistics. And on one hand, I guess, should we be happy that, considering so many things that have happened, obviously, including COVID and so on in the world, that they haven't gone up? Is there a little bit of merit in there somewhere or what do you think? Bill? [00:04:36] Speaker C: Well, we're talking fine points here. If you compare the time of the pandemic with all the other industries, all the other industries stayed stable as a percentage of the population employed, but during that period, the number of suicides within our industry actually went up during that period of time. But it's difficult to get you do not want a suicide statistic that is two point something or other, but it went up over two during that period of time as well. So, I mean, we did see more issues coming through that pandemic period than other people were experiencing. [00:05:16] Speaker A: Now, what I suppose on a very positive note is we can say that within the industry, there has been a very significant change over the last few years. In terms of the likes of, it's okay to talk about that. You're not okay. It's a lot more acceptable than it used to be. So the work that's been done in recent years is having some kind of an impact, but at the same time, there's still a lot of challenges bill aren't there within the industry. Can you sort of shed light on exactly how that is for the sector? [00:05:49] Speaker C: Yeah, if we look at the macro picture then what you've got in the industry, it's got 3.1 million people working in the industry. Roughly 87% of that population are men. Okay, so immediately it's heavily skewed towards the male psyche within the industry. Also the industry has some fantastic rewards, but it carries huge risk. Every year we lose around about 30 to 40 people with onsite incidence fatalities, which is not good, but it's come a long way since 1956 when we were losing somewhere around about 200 people in the industry every year with onsite fatalities. Every year we see around about 2000 accidents. The incapacity an individual to such an extent that they can't actually go back to work in the same role. The industry is number one for occupational cancer cases and 20% of all recorded time off work is due to stress, anxiety or depression. And then ultimately the big statistic is a hard hitting one is that every working day we're losing two construction workers to suicide. So the industry has got a lot of challenges and it's not a brilliant advert and so for to try and bring new people into the industry. So it's something the industry needs to work really hard at, to change those dimensions and put some really good welfare and well being programs and get those dials to change. It's really important. [00:07:17] Speaker A: So there was a report, Bill, in 2017 and obviously that highlighted the issues that we're talking about, but of course since then we've had the COVID-19 pandemic. How has that impacted the mental health of workers within the industry? [00:07:32] Speaker C: Yeah, the report you're referring to was the Stevenson Farmer report that came out in 2017 that really did wake up the industry and say look, the industry has got some really clear mental health issues. What happened during the COVID period is our helpline phone started ringing off the hook because I say go back to that earlier statistic of 53% of the population working as self employed agency workers or zero hour contracts, their income just suddenly stopped because they couldn't work. And at that time as well, it took a little while for the government to come out with their programs of help and support for the self employed to help them get back on their feet. But then construction went back to work pretty quickly straight after that as well. So it did come back to work quite quickly. But then that added an extra strain on as well, because you had all these people traveling together to work, working together on sites, et cetera, and then traveling home, which added increased stress and anxiety not only to the workers possibly taking the disease home, but also people looking at them and saying, what are you doing at work? And you're making this thing worse for everybody else. So that added another huge stress to the situation but there were some good things came out of COVID if you can see there were good things. One is that the industry always said it could never do flexible working and during COVID guess what, we managed to get flexible working which was great. And then the second thing that they've been pushing for a long time is raising the hygiene factors on site as well and because of COVID the hygiene factors on site really had to take a major step forward. So there's been two quite big breakthroughs in the norms within working within the construction industry that were really pushed in a very positive way which in turn adds something that makes it a little bit easier for women to get into the industry as well. Having flexible working and better hygiene factors allows more women inequality, diversity and inclusion to allow that to happen because the industry is 87% dominated by men and again that is not a helpful culture within there because you're dealing with some really ingrained stigma attached to mental health and talking about it. But if we can get more women into the industry and equalize the diversity of the workforce then that is by natural processes is going to make it a better place to work in the future and hopefully attract more young people to come in the future as well. [00:10:14] Speaker A: It's great that you've actually highlighted that point Bill, because it is yes, of course women have a different impact on an environment and with it being so male dominated, of course it does make it much more challenging to address conversations around mental health. We've just been doing a series about female engineers within the built environment with the exact sort of same concept in mind that really we have to encourage more females into all parts of the industry. So that's fantastic. Now but going back to the lockdowns which had a severe effect on lots of people through all parts of the communities around the world, those changes spilled that happened in the work passions at that time. Do you feel that they've stayed or is it like some aspects of lockdown that people kind of have almost forgotten about them? Is it a permanent impact for the industry do you think? [00:11:11] Speaker C: Well, I think the accelerations of the welfare and well being programs are definitely a constant now. That is definitely where a lot of the conversations we are having with the industry and we're getting met with open arms and open doors to come in and talk to them about our story and what we can do to help them on their journey to build a strong welfare and well being program for the workforce. So that has certainly stayed within the industry. I do see that we still need to go a long way to try and really help with that flexible working and I know in Ireland some companies are now trying to work on a four day week. And instead of measuring people by the amount of time that they're actually on site, they're actually measuring people on the output that they're actually achieving. So therefore, when you achieve certain aspects of a project to a certain level, your work is done. And that, to me, is a far better way of working. Because it incentivizes the workforce to really work together to get the work done, because they can get the Friday off, and because a lot of people are traveling sometimes long distances or are away from home. Getting that Friday back is just magical. To get back to your family and friends on a Friday as well. So there's some great things happening within the industry trying to move some of these things around, but at the end of the day, it's a tough culture to move and say, until we can get an environment where it makes it very easy for people to be flexible, then it's going to be very tough. [00:12:52] Speaker A: So one of those things that yourselves as a charity have done towards this is the launch of the Make It Visible campaign going back to January of 2023. How does this campaign fit with all the other initiatives within the industry? And why, Bill, do you feel an overarching rather than a company by company approach is required? [00:13:18] Speaker C: Well, I think the industry is very poor at collaborating on many aspects of me, and certainly one of the things I advocate is there is no intellectual property on welfare and well being. And it's not a brand thing, it's something so XYZ Companies brand of welfare and well being for their workforce is better than Y. But if you've got 53% of the workforce moving around from project to project to project, you just need to have a really good, strong welfare and well being program as a base level that everybody can expect when they get to that site. And that's what we're trying to achieve with the Make It Visible campaign. If we can put in a safety net for everybody across the industry that says here is a baseline of welfare and well being support that everybody should expect when they go onto every site. Because what happens with companies is that they have maybe an employee assistance program, but it only goes as far as their employees. But if you look at any site, you might be the main contractor on the site, but maybe 60, 70% of the people on that site are subcontractors. They're not your people. So your own EAP program might be brilliant, but it's not actually helping everybody on the site. So the whole idea of the Make It Visible program is to equalize that base level, to say that as soon as you walk onto a site, you will absolutely get this base level of support. So to work on that as an overarching strategy across all companies in the industry and get that in place for me is really, really important. [00:14:59] Speaker A: Yeah, that sounds really wonderful, Bill. And a word that you mentioned earlier on during our conversation. It's also very inclusive, which I think is psychologically hugely important, isn't it? [00:15:10] Speaker C: Without a doubt. It's just making sure that anybody who walks onto a site, there'll always be a program that they can get help from somewhere. And especially if you're again, the numbers are big numbers. Out of all the 450,000 businesses that are in construction, I think over 92% have got under ten people in them. So it's a network of very small businesses and these small businesses do not have the capacity to put in place very, very big welfare and well being programs. But if they can know that they walk onto a site that their people are covered to a base level, that's great. And if that site wants to add on top of that base level, or let's call it a ladder of other things that they do on top of that site to make welfare and wellbeing better on their site, that is brilliant. But if everybody could just have one base level standard, everybody can get access to it and get the level of support that they need in times of Cris. [00:16:08] Speaker A: So Bill, let's delve a little bit into actually how the Make It Visible campaign works. I believe there are four different elements. Can you talk us through what each of those are and then we can delve into them in a bit more detail? [00:16:21] Speaker C: Yes, the four key elements are reactive strategies, well being and welfare strategies, proactive welfare and well being strategies, how to drive culture change within our industry and measurement are the four key areas and the one that we've immediately got our heads around, which is the reactive stuff. Because to be fair, that's really what our charity has been all about for a long time is putting in we're trying to fix people when the things happen and get them to a better place after things have happened. And we've got a whole host of services delivering that from the helplines through to text back through to the Makeivisible info portal that's just been launched where everything get access to the information, advice and guidance that they need through beacons around the country. So they've got a lot of reactive services here. The next one is proactive services like what do we do to get people so they don't actually get to the position of Cris? How do we help them before they reach that point? And that's down to me is education and training is a main, main part of that. And some of the things within the industry, like the soft skills training for the black hats and management has been really quite poor within our industry. A lot of people get promoted to supervisory positions because they are technical experts in the field, not necessarily because they're good people, managers. That doesn't mean to say that they can't become good people managers or people do not have some of those skills. But a lot of those skills about being a good people manager can be trained in and educated in about how to handle mean. I don't know how many you must have been on a few sites yourself, Jackie, but it's a very shouty tiki atmosphere. There's a lot of shouting going on and that's not necessarily a wonderful place to be. If we can get better supervisory and management skills in their soft skills, I think again, that's going to really improve the culture and help people to destress in those situations. And then the culture chain thing is what we've talked about a little bit already. How do we move the culture, how do we make this a rewarding and inviting industry for the next generation coming through? Certainly I do a lot of toolbox talks, I go on site quite a lot and one of the questions I ask everybody, put your hands up. If you've got kids, a lot of hands go up. And then the next question, I say, how many of you are advocating a career in construction for your children? And 99% of the hands go down. So how on earth are we going to get advocacy about bringing more people into the industry if the parents of the people in the industry are not saying, this is a great place for the kids to come into? And it doesn't matter how good the schools programs are, et cetera. But if little Johnny or Jemima goes home to Mum and dad and say, I want to be in construction and they say, no way. It's not going to help us get that skills for the future. And we are desperately short of skilled labor in the sector around about 50 60,000 a year skilled labor shortage for the next four or five years. So Brexit hasn't helped us get the labor into the industry as well. So we're dealing with major problems here and then the final element being measurement. Well, we're going to do a lot of things, but it's really important we find some way of trying to measure what we're doing. And if the things we're doing is making a profound difference in some sort of way, we can do more of it. And that measurement piece is quite a difficult thing to get in place as well. How do you measure the welfare and well being of your industry? Yes, we've got high level indicators like the suicide rates within the industry, but how do we get better granularity of that measurement process as well down to the programs that we're running? So a lot of work to do within the task force to make some of those things a reality. [00:20:21] Speaker A: It's very complicated. Also, Bill, at this time, as you've mentioned, of course, brexit and skills shortage and then, of course, we also have over the last year and a half or a little bit know the huge jump in the cost of materials, which I know will be worse in the UK than it even is pretty bad, obviously in Ireland is obviously very bad as well. All of these come together to make it a very challenging for the people who maybe are good people, managers within the industry. There's just so much to cope with, I suppose, isn't there? [00:20:51] Speaker C: Absolutely. There's a lot of moving parts and there's a lot of inefficiencies in here. We know that the productivity within our industry is one of the lowest productive industries that we have. We don't embrace technology as an enabler to help things through. We've got all the issues about cost, materials and labor rates were going up dramatically as a consequence of scarcity of labor. Now then the product prices went up as a consequence of the issues we've had by getting products at the right price and now we're having seeing some pullback from the housing markets because of the interest rate. There's just so many moving parts to the whole market that it's a stressful place to operate in. But with good management you can manage to look at those elements and try and de stress your workforce as best you can by good management skills. [00:21:55] Speaker A: For sure, definitely build that's very much the case. Now, going back to the various elements of the Make It Visible campaign, let's talk in a bit more detail about the reactive strategies. These are obviously the first element that people will see and obviously what you're leading on. Can you talk to us a little bit about what's been done so far in this part of the work and what challenges that you might be experiencing at this stage and what else is left to do? [00:22:23] Speaker C: Yeah, the reactive strategies are relatively mature in the sense of we've now got we talked about this baseline, this safety net. We've got a 24/7 helpline that anybody can access in the UK or Ireland, so that's there and that helpline will give emotional, physical and back to our old Benevolence side, the financial support that people need. We put a lot of food on people's tables and we're getting over 400 calls every month now into our construction industry help line with workers, families in crisis, which we're dealing with on a regular basis. Then we've got a text back service as well. So if people are not confident enough to make the telephone call, we've got a text back service so they can talk to us via text. And we've just recently introduced a line now where we can actually cover around about 27 different languages as well. So we know that the workforce is quite diverse in the languages and cultures already in there, so we're trying to deal with that. Then the big thing we launched was the Makeitvisible Info portal which was launched in May this year and anybody can access that. It's obviously optimized for the UK and Ireland because the signposting is to places where people can get help. And again, it is built around those three pillars of emotional, physical and financial support. And the portal is packed full of information, advice and guidance, plus pathways to get support. Then we've got a major Elearning program as well, which people can access, where again, it's about trying to build up those soft skills as well, which again, people can access is completely free of charge. And then the other thing we've got now, which I think is super, is we've built a nationwide network of what we called Lighthouse Beacons. So if anybody's working away from home they can go onto the portal, look for the Lighthouse beacons and they'll usually find somewhere close by where people meet, physically meet, socialize in a non judgmental environment and they can get some good socializing, maybe do a little bit of sport together. And we haven't invented that. What we've done there is we've curated a nationwide network that's already in existence into one place where you can actually see where they all are. And I think there's over 550 Lighthouse Beacons around the UK and Ireland now where people can drop in and socialize and discuss things in a non judgmental way. So for me, there's a really good portfolio of services there on the reactive side. And then the final thing that we launched in Pilot with Ford Motor Company last year, which is probably our most successful project, which is the make it visible on site program, where we've put tradespeople in a van, very brightly colored van, and we've taken them out on site. And these tradesmen have got a lived experience of mental health problems themselves. They're mental health first aid trained as well, so they know how to respond and act with people and they go on site and they tell the story. And because they are tradesmen and the boots on the ground have a huge empathy with them because when they're not in the vans, they're actually brickies and plumbers and et cetera, that they are working in the trades themselves. So there's a big empathy there and this overcomes two major obstacles we have, which is reducing the stigma to be able to talk about mental health and mental well being, which this particular program does. And then the second thing is to build awareness of the services that are available, which obviously the guys on site then give them out the helpline card and saying, look buddy, if you've got a problem, here's the helpline, use it, that's what it's there for. And what just bowls me over, we've seen about, think about now 30,000 people on site over the last 18 months and out of that we've had 125 active rescues. These are people who basically have come to the individuals on site after the talk is finished and said I am at the end of my tether, I am seriously considering taking my own life. And we've got them immediately into counseling and I'm really pleased to say they're all still with us. So, hand on heart, I can say that this particular program is saving lives in our industry. I just don't know what price you put on that, but it's just an immense feeling of pride in what we're trying to do and what we're trying to achieve going forward. [00:27:16] Speaker A: There is no price, Bill, obviously, for even one of those lives. And so that's just incredible work that you're all doing and so impressive, all aspects of it, and including working in people's maternal languages across 27 different languages, like, just amazing, amazing work going, Bill, to the next stage, which is obviously the proactive stage. This is something that will deliver over time with the culture changes, great changes within the industry and drive, I think, a lot of improvement. Now, I was particularly interested in some of the research you're doing for part of that initiative, especially around upskilling people in terms of them becoming managers. What is Make Invisible doing to tackle this issue and other areas to address that long term culture change? [00:28:09] Speaker C: The industry is really trying to get together around the equality, diversity and inclusion programs going forward. And for a long time the industry has taken all the factors down to a level where and let's break it down to men and women, it's easier, but all the things can be done by men and any trade could be done by a man or a woman. Now, because all the lifting regulations have changed the sizes and everything, you'll still get the guys taking two HODs of bricks around, et cetera, but they don't need to. The bags of cement now are in a way that anybody can lift. So the big thing that needs to happen in the industry is probably to encourage more women into the trades. What we're seeing is very encouraging is that we're seeing a lot more women coming into the professional levels within the industry, which is brilliant, but we still need to see more people coming into the trades. We talked about 87% of the population within construction being men. If you actually distill that down to the trades, I haven't got a statistic in that, but I know for a fact it's going to be very small, probably in its single digits and probably even low single digits as well. And that's where we need to have that major culture change when you get on site is to get that more diversity and inclusion at that level and the industry knows that as well and is trying really hard to push along those lines. There's lots of programs in there to make that happen, but it's going to be a tough and long process to see that change. But if we are going to make the culture change, we need to make that thing move. [00:29:48] Speaker A: So with both your reactive and proactive strategies, there's so much going on, Bill. Obviously fantastic work that's been done to date but how will it be possible to evaluate this? What sort of plans have you got in place to measure your results? [00:30:06] Speaker C: That's one of the most difficult questions and it's quite difficult to sum up. I think the industry is really good at doing things right but we need to be better than that, we need to do right things and there's a big difference doing things right and doing right things. And for me, having a mature welfare and well being program for the industry is a right thing to do. So measurement for me is important but if something can't be measured but it's still a right thing to do, we should still get on and do it. And yes, we have got companies that are now questioning, well, how much money are we spending on this welfare and well being program? Well again, it's one of the things if you look after your people, your people will look after your business and again, that's a right thing to do. So it's going to be very difficult to measure this because some of the elements of it will be very subjective but one thing we certainly can measure is the suicide rates. We've got to see those suicide rates coming down because suicide is probably the most preventable death of any other thing that happens. If we can get to an individual at a time when they're vulnerable and help them get back to a sustainable pathway where everything works out okay for them, for me, that is one of the key measures. We'll still track and monitor the suicides within our industry. It's then how do we then start distilling the other elements of welfare and well being on site? I mean you go to an airport now and you see the three little buttons there happy face, unhappy face. Somewhere in the middle we could have biometric systems going in and out of work to say how are you going into work and how are you coming back from work? And start looking to see where happy sites, bad sites, happy sites, unhappy sites, so there's things that can be done but they're always going to be a little bit more subjective when you're working in a very subjective area like welfare and well being, where it doesn't all happen at work. Is an employer's responsibility to make somebody feel good? No, I don't think so. But is it an employer's duty to make sure when they come to work for them until the time they leave? I'm not going to make you any worse and if I can, I'm going to try and make you feel a little bit better. That's where we should be at. But you can't take total responsibility for people's outside lives, outside activities, et cetera. As an employee you can't do that but what you can do is to make sure you get a working environment that doesn't make any worse and I don't know how we're going to measure that yet. There's a simple answer. [00:32:56] Speaker A: Certainly the biometrics might be an interesting idea there, Bill, but what you've said, it's not up to them to cover all aspects of their employees lives. But when you have a place of work that you enjoy going to and you enjoy your colleagues and as much as a person can enjoy work, well, that's a massive benefit, isn't it? Yeah. So, listen, just going on from the improvements we've seen in terms know since COVID and know and more acceptance of it's okay, not to be OK and so on, but there's still a whole range. We touched on that a little while ago, Bill. There's so many external factors right now in the world, not just in the UK, but touching on the UK, of course, you've got the mortgage, interest rates, rising cost of living, all very tough. Can you tell us how make It Visible is also working to help with these as well? [00:33:56] Speaker C: Well, for me, this all starts with the portal. We spent a huge amount of time and energy working with the CITB who have been the major funder of making that portal happen. And there's a huge amount of information, advice and guidance around a whole host of topic matters, around the emotional well being, physical well being and financial well being. I think that's a great place to start is to be able to go there and find out about things to help yourself and educate yourself. And it's written in a language as well that most people will be able to understand. It's not written in a highbrow language. We've been very deliberate in the language we've used within the portal to make it easy and accessible for as many people as possible. Unfortunately, it's still only in English, which makes it a little bit more difficult where your mother language is not English, but it's a lot more difficult to translate it into all those different languages than it is to put an interpreter in a helpline. But we'll get there eventually. I've been in technology a lot of years of my life and I'm seeing fantastic moves with artificial intelligence now that can help translate stuff pretty quickly as well. So I'm sure we'll get there, but I mean, I think that's just really a great starting point is to have a look at the portal, make it visible, info. It's your very first way to access the world of support for you and whatever crisis you're in. [00:35:26] Speaker A: Yeah, no, it does. It sounds absolutely fantastic. I'm sure the languages will come with time. That is a huge I also work with digital marketing and websites and so on, so I know that the amount of commitment that goes into that, even with AI, obviously. Bill, we've gone through a lot of what you're doing within the charity and what you're planning to do and some of the challenges that you're facing but talking about directly communication to business leaders within the industry, what advice and what sort of way would you like to talk to them today? Bill, through the podcast, through constructive voices. What would you like as their sort of takeaways from this episode today? [00:36:11] Speaker C: Well, I think for anybody who is in business or running a business and I know everybody is balancing out a lot of priorities at the moment. Everybody talks about our people are our biggest asset. Yeah, but hold on, if you've got something that is an asset that is not as valuable, if it's a depreciating asset or is it an appreciating asset and certainly for your people, you'd want it to be an appreciating asset. So you've got to put the time and energy into your people and they will be more loyal to you if you are looking after them better. And certainly one way of looking after them better is to make sure you have a very, very strong welfare and well being program for your people. And I've said it before, if you look after your people, your people will look after your business and be more loyal to your business going forward for sure. [00:37:01] Speaker A: Excellent advice. And what about the listeners? And we have plenty of listeners who won't be at leadership levels, so all sorts of listeners across all sorts of jobs and positions within the built environment. What would you like to leave them with today? [00:37:18] Speaker C: Bill well, again, just because you think you can only do a little doesn't mean to say you don't do anything. And there's a few things that I think every single person can do no matter who they are or where they are in the organization. First of all, if you see somebody struggling, don't ask once, ask twice and see how they're really feeling and make sure that you ask them twice because you often get a different answer the second time around. And then if you do ask that question and they do open up to you, try to listen non judgmentally and respond non judgmentally. It's easy to say, very difficult to do because we are a world of Mr. Fixits and we intend sometimes to jump down and give people an instant solution or we say, oh, that's not a problem at all. Well, it is to them. So trying to listen and respond judgmentally is very difficult to do, but sometimes all that person needs is a listening ear. And the third thing I think that everybody can do is always be kind. There's no reason to be unkind to another human being, especially in your work environment. So try again to think of those things, ask twice, listen, respond non judgmentally and always be kind. And if everybody did that, then we have already got a massive welfare and well being program happening in the culture. But everybody can do that and I would advocate that everybody should try. [00:38:56] Speaker A: What comes to mind. Bill when you're giving that excellent advice is of course, when people aren't kind, it is often because they have something going on for themselves. So it can be a little bit of a catch 22. And what you've said about asking twice or even three times is so hugely important because it's so easy to ask and not want to ask again, or for the person who is answering just to feel like you don't really mean it. So that somebody asking and really digging and wanting to know the answer gives that hope and gives that just moment of being. Somebody cares, somebody's listening to me. [00:39:31] Speaker C: Yes. Spot on, Jackie. Spot on. [00:39:34] Speaker A: So it's been an amazing conversation. I'd just like to say to the listeners, if you have been affected by any of the issues that Bill and I have discussed here today, people working in the construction industry and the built environment have access to the Lighthouse Charity's Make It Visible Portal, which you can find at Makeitvisible Info. Or alternatively, you can call their 24/7 helpline. The number for that is zero 345-605-1956. If you're more comfortable or for some reason it just seems more convenient to you, never forget that the Samaritans helpline is available to everybody at all times and you can call them at any time, talk to them about yourself, or it could be a friend or a colleague that you're worried about and their number is 116123. Thank you so much, Bill, for your time today. [00:40:40] Speaker C: It's been a pleasure, Jackie. [00:40:43] Speaker B: And that's all for this episode of Constructive Voices. Please take a moment to share it with others who may find it interesting. Follow or subscribe to get the latest episodes automatically on your favorite podcast app and rate and review the podcast if you can. You can also listen to the latest episode by saying alexa, play Constructive Voices. [00:41:01] Speaker A: Podcast here's Constructive Voices here's the latest. [00:41:04] Speaker B: Episode and on our website where there's lots more information too. That's constructive voices.com. Don't forget the dash. Until next time. Thanks for listening. You're really helping us build something.