Generation Restoration: A Call To Action With Tim Christophersen

[00:00:00] Speaker A: This is Constructive Voices. Constructive Voices, the podcast for the construction people. With news, views and expert interviews, today's episode brings you Tim Christofferson. It's possibly one of the most exciting episodes to date. Tim has an amazing background. He's worked for a long, long time with the UN and these days he's working with Salesforce. Now, Tim will go into a lot more detail shortly, but we'll mainly be deep diving into his book that's just been release on 14th October 2025. His book is called Generation Restoration and it really wonderfully weaves together the most important ingredients of how we can heal ourselves and the planet. The book is the culmination of Tim's last 29 years of work and life experience. These experiences have included leading parts of the United nations environmental programs. To today, as his current role as VP of Climate Action at Salesforce, it's really hard to imagine anyone better placed to illustrate to the human race how restoration is the key to health, wealth and happiness. We are nature. When we restore nature, we restore ourselves. This is Constructive Voices. So firstly, I'd like to introduce Dr. Brian McSharry, who works as an expert in biodiversity at the European Environment Agency in Copenhagen. Brian managed to get a very early copy of the book and he's going to lead into the main interview with Tim and also after Brian, you're going to hear a few words from one of the leading lights in this area, Sangeeta Waldron. [00:01:33] Speaker B: So, my name is Brian Makshari. I work on biodiversity for the European Environment Agency and I lead our work on our state of nature work. So I really enjoyed reading this book and I just got my hands on a copy earlier on this week and I finished it last night, in fact. And as I have two very young kids, the fact that I can actually one read a book and two, read a book in two or three days is practically unheard of. But once I started reading the book, I felt I couldn't put it down, both in terms of how it was written, but also the messaging that it was using. And again, I was busy taking notes as to how I could use some of these arguments in my own work. But I just felt, you know, for me, when I was reading this book, I had to stay up late at night to finish it off, even though it's a bit tired first thing in the morning with the kids. But it was a pleasure to read. [00:02:21] Speaker A: That's absolutely brilliant, Brian. I can imagine loads of people will be able to relate to your story and. But will you dive a Little bit deeper into your own thoughts about the book there. [00:02:30] Speaker B: First of all, I think it's a really well written book. It's got a series of very interesting vignettes about restoration and the environment and how it all connects together. So I think it's a really easy to read book, but very informative and it gives you a lot of history as to Tim's personal journey, but also the need for restoration. And from my perspective, when I read it, I very much connected it to the ongoing conversations about restoration in Europe, which is something I've been involved in a lot. So, in Europe, we've got the Nature Restoration Regulation, which requires. Has an ambition level to put restoration measure plans for at least 20% of our land and sea by 2030. So countries across Europe are busy at the moment developing these national restoration plans and setting the ambition level for them. So Tim's book is very timely in that it showcases why we need to restore our environment. And he makes the point as well. It's not just for the sake of biodiversity's sake, it's for our economy. And throughout his book, he has a very nice golden thread about connecting the use of nature for our economy and the dependency of our economy upon nature. So it's very much a case of, I think he says it's the ecology, stupid. Paraphrasing James Carville's famous quote from Clinton in his election campaign. But for me, when I read it and I connected across to the work I do, it was a really good tool to allow anyone from the general public to an expert to a policymaker to really understand why we should be doing what we're actually asking us to do at the moment, which is to restore nature. It makes a very compelling case as to why we should be doing this. It gives good examples as to where this has been done and what the benefits of it are, as well as his journey from working at, you know, at a national level, but also what IUCN and what UNEP and his new work in the industry with Salesforce and how all those different organizations can work together to develop something. So I was really impressed when I read the book. I thought it was written with his own voice. It was very honest, it was very clear, and I think it was very impactful for making the argument, if we need to make the argument as to why we should restore nature. [00:04:41] Speaker A: This is Constructive Voices. So I'm also talking to Sangeeta Waldron, who's been on Constructive Voices before, and actually she's been a huge leading light with Constructive Voices and around the world in general. As somebody who's encouraging lots of people to consider their own legacy because of her own book and all, Lots of other work that Sangeeta does and is releasing positive stories every Monday on LinkedIn. She's just in India at the moment doing. She's been at a literary festival and she's doing a book tour around India. And she's just one of the people that I feel is most inspirational in this space. And I know she knows Tim from LinkedIn. And I'm just delighted to welcome you, Sangeet, and thanks a million for taking the time to be with us and just make a little bit of comments about yourself and your own connection to Tim's book. [00:05:27] Speaker C: Jackie, I'm really pleased you've invited me back again and I'm so honoured that you've asked me to say a few words about Tim's book and to be back on this podcast. What I'd like to say about not just Tim's book but his work, it is that it really leans into this positive frame that we need right now. I feel, just from my own work and the conversations I have, people working within the climate movement and people outside the climate movement feel a little bit overwhelmed. There doesn't seem to be a lot of good news around right now, and everything just seems very sort of overwhelming. So I think the more we can shine a light on the good, good work that's happening, the solutions that are out there, because there are plenty of solutions, it makes such a big difference because it creates this feeling of hope. And when we have hope, we can create change because it. It gives us the belief that there are things that we can do. [00:06:29] Speaker A: Absolutely, Sangeeta. And, you know, in Tim's book, I know you're going to be getting a copy soon, obviously, but, you know, in Tim's book, he opens with a foreword by Jane Goodall, who's recently passed from. From this dimension and onto her next adventures, as she says herself. And one of Jane Goodall's many amazing themes is, in fact, the theme of hope. So you couldn't have said it better, Sangeeta, really. [00:06:51] Speaker C: Thank you. I mean, it's, you know, very sad that Jane left us. It's almost a week ago now, but she left a real legacy, a legacy of hope. And she also showed us, and this is something that Tim shows us through his work and I know through what I've read about his book, is that everyone can make a difference. And it doesn't matter how small you think that action might be, everything adds up. All these little actions create a ripple effect and these ripples create a tsunami. And I've always said this, Jackie, and you, you know this. I really believe everyone can make a difference. And I think that. And that is Tim's message. [00:07:35] Speaker A: I know that's absolutely it. So there couldn't be a better lead into my fairly deep dive and wonderful conversation. I'm not talking about myself, I'm talking about what Tim says, which is the full interview. And Sangeeta, thank you for being part of this. [00:07:49] Speaker C: Oh, I'm so pleased that you asked me and I can't wait to read Tim's book. And I know that you're going to have a really fantastic conversation. [00:07:57] Speaker A: Thank you so much. [00:07:58] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:08:00] Speaker A: By the way, don't forget that both Brian and Sangeeta have been guests on Constructive Voices. Why Nature Credits matter with Brian McSherry is available in all the usual places and it was released on 30th September 2025. What will your legacy be with Sangeeta Waldron was broadcast back from 20 January 2025, also is available on the Constructive Voices website, constructive-voices.com and all the usual podcast places. This is Constructive Voices. Jackie de Burcke here from Constructive Voices, sitting with a first time author and a man who's an amazing background. But I'm not going to tell you about that at the moment. We're going to go straight into his book. His name is Tim Christofferson and he has written a book that's going to be launching on the day that you're listening to us for the first time ever on the 14th of October 2025. And the name of the book is Generation Restoration. I will read a small line or two written by Jane Goodall that many of you will be familiar with in the foreword of the book. Unfortunately, though we are unquestionably the most intellectual creature that has ever lived on planet Earth, we cannot claim that we are the most intelligent. If we were, we would not be destroying our only home. Tim, over to you. What's the core promise of the book and who did you write it for specifically? [00:09:26] Speaker D: The core promise of the book is that we are more intelligent than it seems at the moment and that we can evolve into a human civilization that is repairing the damage we've inflicted on nature and thereby on ourselves. And it's for everybody really, who is part of this fascinating experiment we call humanity. It is about that next step in human evolution in our relationship with nature, which we urgently need to repair. [00:09:54] Speaker A: Okay. I mean it's an absolutely excellent book, and I think it's very accessible. As you say, it's, you know, it's for everyone who's needing to understand and be motivated and feeling more positive about how we can repair that relationship. You open generation restoration with shrinking wildlife migrations in East Africa. What did the scene that you talk about, Tim, what did it teach you about the pace and scale of restoration we need in one generation? [00:10:20] Speaker D: We are perhaps well into. Scientists are still debating this, but we're probably well into the sixth mass extinction crisis of planet Earth, where the diversity we have and the abundance of wildlife is just plummeting. Since 1970, we've lost about 73% of all wildlife populations, and only about 4% of the weight of all mammals on Planet Earth are wildlife. The rest are humans and livestock. So we have basically depleted our natural heritage to what I call in the book A 10 Percent World. We live in a 10% world. But what makes it fascinating is that most of us don't know because we have sort of blinders on that ecologists call shifting baseline syndrome. And that means because each generation takes the nature that they experience as the norm and for granted, we tend to forget how much richer we were just a decade or two or three ago. And in the book, I talk about my experience fishing as a boy. And European eel was fairly common at that point, and we used to catch a few every night in the summer, and it was just part of the way of life where I grew up in a small village. Thirty years later, the European eel is an endangered species. It's listed on the CITES annex. It's a highly priced, smuggled commodity. Populations have plummeted by more than 90% within my lifetime. So this is something we can observe. But still, it happens in a millisecond from Earth's perspective, in a geological timeframe, but it happens in a generational perspective for humans, and that is sometimes too slow for us to notice. But we are in a deep nosedive when it comes to our current natural heritage and the abundance and diversity of nature. [00:12:14] Speaker A: So I think this is the perfect time to do what I normally do at the beginning of a program and ask you. I just wanted you to build the book, which you've done wonderfully, Tim, ask you now to introduce yourself, because what occurs to me on researching and reading your book is your life journey from a professional perspective seems to have built perfectly into where you are now and the release of this very, very important book. [00:12:37] Speaker D: Well, thank you, Jackie. That's kind of you to say Because I really see this as my life's passion to help ourselves, myself, my family, but also, I think all of us, hopefully, to restore this relationship with nature. And it is an ongoing journey that is both professionally motivating for me with the various stations I've been at, but also deeply personal. And it started when I was a child, I think, going for long forest walks with my grandfather was a forester. And I grew up in a small village where there was really not that much else to do but spend time out in nature, in the forest and fishing and camping. And that love for nature that that has generated has been with me ever since. And I then studied forestry. And in the book I talk briefly about how that has spread, shaped, or maybe skewed my view of the natural world. Because when you study production forestry, even though I had a focus on nature conservation, you are taught to see a forest in metric units of value of standing timber, scientific names of plants and animals, and ways for optimizing utility value for humans. And what you don't see, at least not when I studied that, is changing now, luckily, with ecology becoming more of a powerful scientific discipline. But what you don't see are the connections of what makes a forest a forest. It's more than the sum of the trees. So that powerful life force that was sort of. I lost that during my studies. I started then to work professionally on forestry, first with the European Commission and then with the International Union for the Conservation of Wildlife. I was there for five years, opened our office, this was in the early 2000s, and opened our office in southeastern Europe and one in the Caucasus. Biodiversity hotspots in Europe, was responsible for the European Conservation Program. And then I became the Forest Biodiversity officer at the Convention on Biodiversity, which is one of the three so called Rio conventions on climate change, on biodiversity and on desertification that form the international law backbone of protecting life on Earth. I joined the UN at that point and have been with the UN 15 years with several tasks. And my last job at the UN Environment Program was to set up the UN Decade on Ecosystem Restoration. And then about three years ago, company called Salesforce called me. And I've been in touch with them on and off because they set up the Trillion Trees Initiative at the World Economic Forum, a very ambitious global forest landscape restoration program for private sector participants and companies who wanted to make a difference. And I'd been advising them on and off, and then at some point they called me and said, we have so many questions to you and we speaks often anyway, why don't you Come and run our emerging nature program and our investments in forests and our water footprint. And so I've. I joined Salesforce three and a half years ago and haven't regretted it because it's a fascinating place to work. I basically work with most of the Fortune 500 companies, sustainability teams who have a trust relationship with us, and they call us once in a while, our team, and ask about this new thing they've heard about called biodiversity and what they should do about it and how to address their water footprint. So I've always worked on the same issue from different perspectives in public sector and now private sector. And all of that has flown into the book. And it ends on a personal chapter where I described the farm that we bought five years ago, where we live, my family and I, here in Denmark, and that we're now restoring back to, hopefully a permaculture and regenerative agriculture farm that is probably the most difficult of all the things. It's actually my wife who runs the farm, and so I, you know, it's easy for me to talk about it because she does most of the planning and working, and I get to help once in a while when I'm not in the office. But it's a fascinating journey and I. [00:17:13] Speaker A: Love the fact that, you know, obviously, even if it is your wife who's more the boss of the farm, let's just say, just to put it into a very basic format, you know, what's happening in your personal life is now a mirror of, you know, your journey up to now, and the fact that you've gone from Dun into Salesforce, and it's just a fascinating journey. And, you know, you see that throughout the book, of course, as well, which is amazing. One of the quotes that you have him in chapter one, Buckminster Fuller said, there is one outstandingly important fact regarding spaceship Earth, and that is that no instruction book came with it. Can you elaborate on why you chose that quote? [00:17:53] Speaker D: Yeah, I. I actually like that quote because it puts nature in a perspective that most people are more familiar with, which is technology. And that is, at the same time, the underlying misperception I want to address in the book. We are part of nature. All of us, with our culture, our technology, even our cities, all of this is part of nature. And we've forgotten that. The quote by Buckminster Fuller is more of a humoristic way of introducing that we are flying this planet basically without really understanding how it works. One of the reasons why that is really important is if you go back to the roots of the word Economy, from ancient Greek, it's oikos is our common home. And the economy is the management of our common home or household. Ecology is the knowledge of our common home or household. So we are running the world economy basically without ecological literacy. And we see the results of that are disastrous. At the moment, we are depleting natural capital at a very fast pace. We are in a tailspin in terms of the resilience and supply chain security of most of the world's economy. So we have to reconcile economy and ecology. And that's where I lead to with that quote in the book. I think it's fundamentally Earth is not a spaceship at all, which I also make clear later in the book. It's infinitely more complex and really infinitely more beautiful also than any spaceship that we could ever construct. But it is a nice metaphor to use for people who have a more of a technology angle and focus. So I hope I can draw people in from all kinds of backgrounds, even if they're not really that much in touch with nature. It's probably more important for people who don't really think much about nature to read the book than I think for anybody who is in the conservation circle anyway and is an environmentalist, because we need a lot more people to draw into this basic ecological literacy. [00:20:07] Speaker A: Absolutely. So I've had the same discussions with obviously lots of different guests and everything. And also the other thing, you know, when you talk about like the vast majority of people are a lot of people who could do with reading your book and seeing nature, perceiving nature differently again as. As that we are part of it and so on. Just with the summer that we've had here in Spain and in other areas, what's amazed me is the amount of people who say, oh, we've had a wonderful summer, with the idea that it's actually really good news that the heating is okay, you know. [00:20:35] Speaker D: Yeah, there's a nice saying, and it's actually a line from a song I like by Jason Mraz. Have it all. May the best of your todays be the worst of your tomorrows. And that is exactly what we're flipping upside down with. Climate change. The the worst of our today is maybe the best of our tomorrows. Because if we have one summer where there's just a few heat waves and a few forest fires and a few droughts, we are going into a future where that will more and more become the norm. And it's not even that there is no such thing as the new normal. If it was just the new normal, I think we could possibly adapt. But the problem with climate change is that there are ecological tipping points in this system called Earth. [00:21:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:20] Speaker D: That if they're triggered, we could head for runaway climate change. And then there is no adaptation to that that humans could manage. I don't think. You know, I'm not saying that's. That people sometimes say that, that the human race could go extinct or we could go extinct like other species. I don't believe that because we're so resilient and so smart, but it certainly would absolutely diminish any quality of life that we've come. Come to be used to. And we have the choice. I mean, this is not an. That's not a foregone conclusion. We could actually go into a future that is both cleaner, greener, healthier, more abundant and more prosperous for all of us. And that path leads through restoration of nature at a planetary scale, at a geological scale. And we're the first generation that has the capacity, the technology, the science, the tools, even the finance to do that. And also the last generation that has the chance to do that. Thus the title of the book. [00:22:29] Speaker A: Absolutely. And even more beautiful. I think the word always comes into my mind, you know, when we're having the positive conversations as to what can happen. It can be very beautiful as well. And one of the things, Tim, you say in the early part of the book is nature basically works like a flywheel, which needs critical mass and speed. Would you like to explain that? [00:22:48] Speaker D: Yeah. We see that here on the farm, and when we took over the farm, we had some soil samples taken and basically the soil and also the soil on our neighboring fields, which are industrially managed, there's almost no micro biodiversity in the soil. On our neighboring fields there weren't even earthworms, which is a result of the way of industrial agriculture. Limiting the life in the equation for agriculture, which is basically just an outcome of chemistry and physics with a lot of input of fossil fuels and industrial fertilizers. When you have instead agriculture that is based on biology, a lot of the diversity of life that is in the soil is what creates productivity. And the more diversity in the soil, the more productivity you can generate, basically because that micro biodiversity in the soil is what both captures and unlocks carbon in the soil. It is what helps the soil absorb rainwater. We took then samples just a year later after doing high intensity rotational grazing with sheep on our fields, and the biodiversity in the soil had bounced back really quickly. It is phenomenal to see. We're of course, doing more now with compost teas and all these very sophisticated ways to regenerate and reactivate the soil. Food web is the term for that three dimensional food chain that exists in the soils and that is basically the source of all agricultural output. But the flywheel effect is the more diversity you have in this case in the soil, the more productive the soil becomes and the more abundant the productivity. And this is something we are seeing with all the aspects of biodiversity here on the farm. Insect life has come back. We have had doubling of the population of swallows, we've had barn owls move in. We've already have eight out of the 15 species of bats back over a lake that we dug just two years ago. So it is. Nature is waiting for that kind of being unshackled I think from our extractive mindset and given the, given that energy and diversity and abundance back. So working with nature, it turns itself into a flywheel that becomes more diverse more and creates more abundance if given the chance. [00:25:32] Speaker A: Have you and your wife grown like little bits of food on the farm or not? [00:25:37] Speaker D: Yeah, we have a very large kitchen garden. I mean during the summer we basically only eat what we produce ourselves and we have ducks and chicken and we, we are starting to sell some of our produce. But it's. For now in, in this transition phase of transforming the farm, we are also testing a lot of things because we need to know what, what grows well here. And there's some things that just inexplicably sort of agree more with one location than with another. Recently we started to grow artichokes with which we both like and they do phenomenally well here. So this is definitely a produce that will gear towards a commercial sale. And then we experiment with edible chestnuts and with walnuts for nut plantation, which are also both doing very well here. So that will become part of our staple. So it's, it's work in progress. [00:26:35] Speaker A: The reason I asked you that actually was because such a simple example for people who are going to read your book and maybe aren't as much into nature as you are or I am. But the simple example would be that the things that we've grown on our farm in Spain, the tomatoes are probably the most dramatic example of the explosion of taste as something that you'd never tasted in your life before, that you wouldn't, you just can't buy it anywhere else. So it goes to show what happens with the soil. We, we farm in a way that obviously is in tune with nature, obviously without chemicals and so on, you know. So I asked you from that perspective, it's, like, fascinating, the difference of taste when you let nature do its own thing. [00:27:16] Speaker D: You know, it's. It's actually, the taste is one thing, and I fully agree with you. The other thing we've observed is that the amount of food we need is also less, actually, because there seems to be a higher density of nutrients, vitamins, minerals. We haven't really tested that yet, but it's just an observation that it is. It is more nourishing in some ways. The taste is phenomenal. I agree with you. And once you've started eating homegrown tomatoes, it's difficult to go back to the. [00:27:46] Speaker A: Yeah, the supermarkets produce ones. Absolutely. And one very quick comment just. Just for listeners and for your own interest, as an Spanish writer that we did ecological farming courses with in the early days, he's called Mariano Bueno, and he's written a number of books. And he talks to him without going into sort of the science so much of it, but he talks about very much what you've just mentioned, that the value of that food that's grown, you know, as close to you as possible is entirely different. And I think we could probably have, like, just a whole podcast episode about why that is. But it is. Apart from the taste, it's another. It's another really amazing benefit. [00:28:25] Speaker D: There's a lot of fascinating science coming out on these aspects of ecology and also our connection with nature, and that there is more happening between humans or animals and the land and their ecosystem they live in than meets the eye. So I think in the next few years, we'll see phenomenal breakthroughs in ecology, also, with the help of AI, which now can really crunch very large numbers and see connections across disciplines where humans alone could probably not do that. But together with AI, we can crack some of these difficult barriers in science, and one of them is what is the nutritional value really, of food and what goes into it, beyond the obvious minerals and vitamins and calories that we can measure. And this. Yeah, this. This. It could be a whole podcast. I agree. [00:29:25] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. So what Mariano Bueno told us years ago, very, very briefly, it's sort of. We're going into sort of a little bit of a. Sort of a spiritual thing, but essentially, he said it's more or less like those plants or those trees that bear fruit or produce for you that are like either on your land or very close by. It's almost like they kind of know your needs somehow or other. [00:29:45] Speaker D: It is. That links actually to a recent study that my wife and I have read here that there are some, some of the microbiodiversity in the soil, they actually increase your happiness because they link with the endorphins and with the sense of well being in. And this is just sort of a chemical reaction. But it is true that if you work with the soil it literally makes you happy because there are some connections happening there that we are only recently able to measure. And I end the book on a. On a very personal and spiritual note to say that we, in our new relationship with nature, it cannot only be transactional. You read the quote from Jane Goodall in the beginning that we cannot understand the world only in an intellectual way. I think it's probably the western world's largest blind spot that we try to understand and interpret everything only through the lens of science, which is a useful tool, no doubt. But there are different ways of understanding and relating to nature that have to do with the heart and with all our being. And opening ourselves to that form of knowing can be a powerful complement to modern science. But we've forgotten really how to do that. So there's a lot to learn from indigenous peoples and their wisdom and from traditional ecological knowledge which also exists outside of indigenous communities. And I explain some of that in the book. [00:31:19] Speaker A: Absolutely. So we're going to go back a little bit more because we had a fascination discussion so far. But let's go back to sort of the, the journey through the book, Tim. And whilst you and I are both very optimistic and can see the amazing potential that lies ahead of us, let's just go through the likes of something you mentioned earlier on tipping points and also tipping points of no return. Can you explain those to the listeners? [00:31:42] Speaker D: Yeah. Tipping points is a term that has recently much been used in climate science and the climate modeling we work with for the predictions what will happen with planet Earth until the end of the century. There are several large ecological tipping points like the meltdown of the West Antarctic ice sheet, for example. The one that, that worries me most at the moment is the dieback of the Amazon forest basin into. From what is now a moist tropical forest into a woodland savannah which would experience more frequent fires and droughts. And that worries me because we're quite close to that tipping point which could occur at scientists have estimated around 20% of deforestation of the Amazon. And we're getting really, really close to that. Why that is a problem is that the Amazon actually produces the rain and circulates it for almost all of Latin America's agriculture. And if that conveyor belt of what is called the flying rivers. If that stops, it would cause massive problems in Latin America, but it would also potentially trigger other cascading effects and tipping points because there would be so much carbon released into the atmosphere from more fires in the Amazon. So this is one thing we absolutely have to avoid. And in about two months or a month after this episode airs, there's a large UN climate summit in Brazil, the first time that the UN Summit on climate change happens in the Amazon. So I think we all need to support the Brazilian government's efforts to turn, turn that around. What is really promising is that there are large scale restoration efforts now underway in the heart of the Amazon and what is called the arc of deforestation along the edges of the Amazon, where forest is turned into cattle pastures. And they've named it the arc of restoration. So they're aiming to restore about 6 million hectares of Amazon forest back to, not necessarily closed canopy natural rainforest, but agroforestry and productive forms of landscapes that have high carbon value and high biodiversity value, but also high productivity. So that makes me really hopeful that we can turn the tide. But we don't have much time. [00:34:06] Speaker A: Absolutely. One of the issues, of course, is something that you bring up also quite early in the book, Tim. This significant transgenerational loss resulted from the lack of basic ecological literacy among decision makers. So there is change afoot. And later in the book you talk about the financial side of things as well. There's plenty of positive change happening, but in terms of decision makers and ecological literacy, is it sufficient? Do you feel it's growing at a rate that's going to be good for us? [00:34:37] Speaker D: I think it's growing at a, at a rapid pace. I mean, you take the example of Mark Carney, who's now the Prime Minister of Canada, and when he was at the bank of England, he issued one of the first reports that looked deeply into the issue of ecological risk and what that could do to the world economy. So we see decision makers like him moving up through the ranks and being in a position of power where they can make a difference. I think it's only natural in a sense that we are part of nature and therefore we are rising to the defense of the natural world. There is, there's a. There's an emerging movement. And Generational restoration, by the way, is not only the title of my book, it's the hashtag of the UN Decade on restoration. Yeah, and you go on Instagram right Now, there's like 140,000 mentions of, of generation restoration in terms of all the projects people are doing on ecosystem restoration, all the grassroots movements that are emerging. So I think ecological literacy is, is very quickly on the rise. It is something that also could be helped again by AI. Of course, there are downsides of AI and risks that we need to weigh. AI is also very energy and water hungry with the data centers that are being built. But on the, on the upside, AI could make that ecological literacy really fast available to everybody. Imagine you had like your own PhD advisor in your pocket with you at all times in terms of what species are in an ecosystem, how you can better support the recovery of nature, how to farm. I mean, it's phenomenal what is happening right now, also in the availability and the possible democratization of knowledge. And we have to get that right as well. The ecological literacy we need is linked to the AI revolution, and we have to get that right. [00:36:35] Speaker A: Tim Ecology, the science of our only home. What one concept should every, you know, mayor or CEO or high school headmaster or mistress talk about and why? [00:36:48] Speaker D: I think this notion that nature is everybody's business, quite literally is, is important to keep in mind. We are, we've become used to the fact that nature is just always there, sort of. It provides clean water and lots of food and recreation when we need it. And that sort of basic infrastructure function of nature and the ecosystem services it provides to humanity is something we can no longer take for granted, just like we can no longer take it for granted that everybody has access to electricity or water. These are things we have to actively strive for and invest in. So in the book, there's a whole chapter on natural capital and how to invest more and more wisely into nature. But I think we need about a trillion dollars per year of investments back into nature. And that's actually not that much if you think about it, because we're, we're at about 10% of that at the moment. But it's, it's about 1% of global, the world, the world economy of global GDP. So it's really just a small amount compared to what we get in return. But we can no longer just draw on nature's bank account because we've overdrawn it. It's almost empty. So we need to invest back into natural capital. [00:38:17] Speaker A: Definitely. I really enjoyed as well the fact that you referenced John Perlin because we've got a lot to learn. Also from, from his book, a quote. In his seminal book, A Forest Journey, John Perlin traces the intertwined fate of humanity and forests over 5,000 years from ancient Mesopotamia to the 21st century. I think there's a lot that you can probably say, Tim, about this. [00:38:46] Speaker D: Yeah, John and I had a few great discussions about his book, which I actually ordered and handed out copies to a lunch we recently hosted with Salesforce and fellow Custom and fellow companies because I like. I really love his book, A Forest Journey that traces back our relationship as humanity with nature for about 5,000 years. And it is the. It is a basic book for ecological literacy that should actually be part of the curriculum of schools and universities. One of the things he describes in the book, even though he doesn't call it that in the book, but in ancient Greece, from about 400 to 300 before the common Era, they had really hit ecological rock bottom because of the war with Sparta. And they turned every large tree in the country into ships for naval power. All the hillsides were denuded. There was no forest left. There's a quote in his books. There's nothing but food for bees in the hills around Athens. And what happened then is that there was an ecological awakening also informed by the writings of Aristotle and Plato. And that led to a number, a number of laws being implemented to really turn that around and be. Become an ecological century. Actually, in the book, I call for a similar century of ecology that we need right now because we're about to hit a similar rock bottom as they did. And for about 100 years, they severely restricted the use of timber, planted a lot of trees, terraced a lot of hillsides, restored ecosystems at a national level and scale. And that paid off because they really, they had a resurgence of Greek culture and economy and naval power, even though they sort of moved towards Macedonia and other areas to chop down the trees there. So that wasn't. That wasn't really part of this ecological century, but they definitely turned around their own backyard and how they relied on ecosystems. So I think we can learn from those examples in history and we can definitely do it again because we now have much more sophisticated tools, we have better science, we have a lot more resources. So if they could do it, so can we. [00:41:17] Speaker A: There was a couple of things that surprised me, Tim. Suzanne Simard's research and lots of other studies have confirmed this show that the collaboration between species is far more common in nature than. Than competition. That's something that we kind of touched on a little bit earlier in terms of food. Isn't that an interesting one? What do you think the effect of that would be if more people understood that and embraced it? [00:41:42] Speaker D: Yeah, it's fascinating. It's also what. What surprised me most. I think in the book, when I did the research, we've been conditioned very much to the survival of the fittest idea of, of Darwin. Interestingly, Darwin later in his life sort of nuanced that idea very much and did talk about the collaboration between species and the functioning of ecosystems. But what stuck with us for hundreds of years is this notion that competition is the main organizing principle of nature. And that is not true. Actually. Recent research shows that collaboration is the main organizing principle of nature. And sure there is competition both between and within species, but there is even more collaboration at an ecosystem system level between not only trees of the same species, but in a forest, even between different tree species. So showing that was, I think, a really important milestone in science. And understanding what that means for humans is very important because we've also been conditioned very much by the philosophy of the Enlightenment era. Big misnomer in my view. That hasn't really enlightened us in the sense that we, we need enlightenment. But Rene Descartes and other, other philosophers of that time taught us that we are the only species on the planet that has a divine spark, sort of a connection to the divine. And everything else is just an intricate machine that is put here for our convenience. So I think that is at the root of this reductionist thinking and the extractive economy that we see today. So we're basically flying on a philosophical autopilot that's been programmed 300 years ago and it's now crash landing us. So we need to ask some big questions, bigger than the ones we're currently asking of what is the next step in human understanding and evolution? Where are we going as a species and as a civilization? And I'm not saying that I'm giving the answers to those questions because I'm not a philosopher. But we need a new narrative as humanity. And that narrative has to be positive, has to be powerful, and it has to be something that everybody can agree to and feel a part of. So I think part of that answer lies in a new relationship with nature. [00:44:12] Speaker A: Definitely. And a quote from the book that also is very, I think, encouraging and one that I think it's very important for people who are maybe less connected with nature to consider is humans possess an inherent biologically based affinity for nature and other living organisms. This is something that I think for people who have cut themselves off because they have bought into, you know, the philosophy that's really done and dusted at this stage and is actually very damaging. I think it's so important, isn't it, Tim? [00:44:44] Speaker D: Yeah, this is the, the biophilia theory by E. O. Wilson, who basically his hypothesis is that because we have, for all of human existence, have grown up with and around animals and wildlife and we have been part of nature as we still are today, just forgotten about it. But we have this connection hardwired into our genes and into our understanding. So I, I think everybody can still feel that connection. For some of us, it's deeply buried into under living in cities and having really nothing to do with nature, but also having this idea of nature as something out there in a national park for nature, you have to go somewhere which is not true. Nature is always there. It's always around us, actually inside us. In the book, I also talk about the fact that we are walking ecosystems that are made up of billions of cells of non human species that help us digest our food and they help our skin defend itself from pathogens. So we are a walking ecosystem. We are nature as we walk and talk. So the fact that nature is always there, even if you're in a city, even if you are sitting at your desk, is something that we have forgotten. We tend to think of nature as something that you have to get in your car and drive to, to visit, which is bizarre. [00:46:19] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And, and sure, there's been loads of scientific studies also on the fact that even if you put up a picture of nature in your office or your home, that, that is, you know, it's an improvement. [00:46:29] Speaker D: You know, my career started as a research assistant on urban forestry and urban reforestation. And one of the first papers I read was a study that showed that people who are in hospital, they get released on average two days earlier if they look out on a green park than if they look out on a brick wall. I found that so fascinating. [00:46:50] Speaker A: It is. [00:46:51] Speaker D: That fact has stuck with me for 25 years. [00:46:55] Speaker A: Yeah, it is, because absolutely. [00:46:57] Speaker D: It really says something to what is our relationship with nature and with other life on the planet. And I think this is something we are now more urgently than ever needing to rediscover. And one of the best ways to do that is to think about it, but also just spend time in the elements. You don't have to go to necessarily a pristine nature area or a park, but spend time outside, spend time in the elements, spend time walking bare feet over a patch of soil or a patch of grass, try to understand what other species are around. So building that relationship with other species, with wildlife, is something that definitely will pay off for your health, if nothing else. But I think it will also, for everybody who does that, open that door to a new relationship with nature. And I mean that quite in a literal sense in terms of a relationship like we have with our family and with our friends, with another person. It's possible to have a relationship with the land, with, with the ecosystem that we are part of. And once we listen, we can, we can learn a lot from that relationship. [00:48:17] Speaker A: I would entirely agree with that. Tim. Here's another quote from your book. A world where both humans and nature live in harmony and thrive will be possible once we change the core of our relationship with nature, which is basically what you've just been talking about. How can this be achieved? You know, cutting to the chase with those people who are more challenging to achieve it with. [00:48:40] Speaker D: So I would say that not everybody in social movements and transformations, not everybody needs to agree with everything and needs to be even part of it. There are some studies that show that if around 3.5% of a population shifts their mindset about something and is vocal about it, this can be enough of a shift to trigger the entire behavior of a community, of a society. So it's not necessarily that everybody needs to get behind repairing our relationship with nature. But having said that, I have yet to meet anyone actually who says they hate nature. They really don't like forests, don't like trees, don't like wildlife. Of course, you know, people say they don't like mosquitoes or parts parts of nature. And that's fair enough. But I've yet to meet somebody who really does not want to be part of it. Of course the, the larger problem you refer to is sort of the apathy or the lack of engagement with this topic. And I think the best way to deal with that is to just talk about it and talk about our newfound love and connection with nature. Because it's something that's open to everybody. And if there's something that you can have a great relationship with a wonderful and I would even say entity. Why, why would you not do want to do that? It's something that is only beneficial. It has no ill side effects. You can only learn and benefit from it, from everything, from your health, your well being, even the way you understand and relate to food will change and evolve. So it is absolutely positive all around. And I've yet to meet somebody who, when they understand what they can gain, who would say, no thanks, I'm not interested. [00:50:38] Speaker A: Absolutely. I don't know if you and your wife maybe feel the same or not, but I definitely feel younger when I spend a bit of time out in nature. [00:50:45] Speaker D: Well, yeah, I agree with that it's almost like age becomes less of a concept that we keep in our minds. It's almost like one becomes a bit ageless because it's that joy that one can feel out in. Well, now. Now even I say out in nature. I don't mean out there. I mean in the connection with nature. You know, that joy that you can feel. It is, I think, that is timeless and is, in a sense, also ageless. It's the same joy I felt when I was a child. I actually think at that point I had a deep understanding of this sort of life force that flows through ecosystems and that makes an ecosystem vibrant, the connection between species. I think I could feel that. But then later in my formal education and especially at university, that was sort of thoroughly distilled out of me and replaced with more of a numerical and quantified and scientific concept of nature. But I think it's still there. I can still go out, in this case only to my garden. Not that far. But I do have to leave my office. [00:51:47] Speaker A: Sure. [00:51:48] Speaker D: Go out into nature and feel that connection. It is still there. [00:51:52] Speaker A: I think it's fascinating that you bring. You know, I said it because of the age thing. And who doesn't want to feel a bit younger unless you're very young and you're waiting to get older? But, you know, mostly people, when they hit a certain age, they'd like to feel a bit more youthful. And I like very much what you've said about your own situation. What it makes me think about, Tim, is I probably felt the exact same. And I think part of the reason for that is children, up until they're six or seven years of age, they're living out of the subconscious as opposed to the conscious mind. So they're much more able to. Just to be natural, I suppose. [00:52:24] Speaker D: Yeah, that's right. And they're also much more impressionable. So we really, really need to, I think, be much more mindful of that age bracket in children when they're basically imprinted with all their future behaviors. And I agree that rediscovering that is a great joy. I think there's a saying that the purpose of adulthood is to rediscover the seriousness you had as a child when playing. You know, the earnestness of that deep immersion into playing and just absorption into what you're doing. And if you manage to find that as a profession or as your work as an adult, then you've really hit the. Hit the jackpot. [00:53:08] Speaker A: Totally, totally. I totally agree. Not for any religious, you know, sort of connections or anything. But there is the quote from Pope Francis that the harmony between the Creator, humanity and creation as a whole was disrupted by our presuming to take the place of God and refusing to acknowledge our creaturely limitations. Now, again, once again, saying it, this is meant to be very accessible. It's not to say anybody's a Catholic or a Jew or it doesn't matter at all. But the quote itself is very much. It resonates a lot with me, Tim, because of the fact that it doesn't matter who you are, where you're from. But that's probably the biggest problem, is we think we can play God with the earth and the creatures around us. [00:53:52] Speaker D: Yeah, I think that lack of humility is one of the largest problems we have. I'm not a Catholic, but I have huge respect for Pope Francis and the encyclical he wrote, Laudato Si. I think that's also basic reading for ecological literacy. And fortunately Pope Leo is now carrying that on and that link to the importance of ecological literacy, what I think is problematic and I deal a lot with what I would call techno optimists. You know, I work for a large technology company. The understanding in, for example, the voluntary carbon market, you know, buying carbon credits, that we could design technology that is smarter or better than nature, which has three and a half billion years of research and development invested in this is ludicrous. But still you have really that feeling that nature can be improved upon and topped by our machines. And I think we'll. In the book I write about this one tree in the mountains of Utah, it's actually clone of 47,000 aspen trees. And that entire entity is one being because it's a genetically identical forest from one root system. It has a name, it's called Pando, which means, I expand in Latin, Pando as a tree and as a being has been around. And this is really is a long time. Anywhere between 16,000 and 80,000 years. There's been genetic research done recently that puts the upper age limit up to 80,000 years. Probably it's somewhere in the middle 50,000 years. So that tree has been around for 50,000 years, survived forest fires, meteorite hits, possibly an ice age. It's more than 16,000 years. So if we ever build a machine that takes carbon out of the air, puts it into the soil, only produces clean water and oxygen as side products and timber. And a great tourist destination is self repairing, self replicating, replicating, and works without maintenance for 80,000 years. Who's ever heard of a machine like that? This is so far beyond anything we can do that it amazes me that we have these, you know, the, the technology focus. But of course technology has an important role to play as well. We just shouldn't think that we are anywhere near the sophistication of nature yet with our technology. [00:56:36] Speaker A: Agree, I totally agree. Now unavoidable because of the consumer orientated world we're currently living in. We have to talk about the financials, Tim, which you've gone into a great, you know, great amount of detail in, in your book. You've personally experienced some of this on your family farm because you wrote governments around the world are now starting to measure natural capital systematically and natural finance authorities are accounting for nature in their countries balance sheets. You covered some subsidies you got on your own farm, which is kind of mirroring what you're talking about like you know, globally in that quote. Let's discuss this and some of the other sort of more important economic shifts that seem to be a foot right now. [00:57:20] Speaker D: So in the book I do talk about the need for investing in nature and the financial mechanisms and how we can make that happen and why it's a good investment. And there's research that shows that every dollar invested in ecosystem restoration can generate up to $30 in return for society at large. So it is a phenomenally good investment. I think there's something more fundamental we need to shift first though. We need to change the way we value and relate to nature because that will then also change how and why we invest. If we see nature as family, and this is probably the true for everybody in the world who has family, you wouldn't ask, you know, is it a good investment to treat my children and my spouse well? Does this financially pay off? For me it's to be a very cynical view of the world. But yet at the same time we do everything we can and to invest in our children, in our families, in our family's well being. I think that's the kind of relationship we need to get to. Once we get closer to that, I think we are getting closer to that. There are many ways how we can invest in nature so that there's also a financial gain. I like. There's a framework for investing a large scale ecosystem restoration called the four returns framework by organization called Common Land. And they speak about financial returns which are obviously necessary for institutional investors. But there's also the returns in terms of social capital, of natural capital and of inspirational capital. So when we invest in nature we get sort of these four returns back and we have to also program and understand our investments in nature in that sense, because it's a much more holistic and meaningful investment than in most other asset classes. So the promising thing about financing nature restoration and conservation is that nature is now more than it was even a year ago, a clearly defined asset class. And that means institutional investors can price the risk and the rewards from nature investments. They can understand what the downfalls, the pitfalls are, why nature investments could go wrong, how they could go well, what the payback time is. So, I mean, all those things that are very clear for real estate as an asset class were not clear for nature until recently. And now that's changed thanks to the work of the UNEP Finance Initiative and other pioneers. So there's a lot happening there. I still think that finance will start to flow once we have a better understanding of how much we depend on and are part of nature. [01:00:11] Speaker A: Sure. Do you have any positive examples that you'd like to talk about when it comes to the financial side of it, Tim? [01:00:18] Speaker D: Well, just in the past four years, private sector investments into nature have gone up 11 fold. So there's more and more private investment funds that focus on the restoration of nature, often for the carbon market, but also more and more for nature as infrastructure. So it's gone up to over $100 billion per year, which still is maybe a tenth of what we really need. But it's getting close to the level of investment we need to treat nature as infrastructure. I think we're starting to see large scale investments for which these funds that are now being established, private investment funds around the 500 million or 1 billion doll mark, are a good test case and a starting point. But we need investments really in the hundreds of billions. And that also means lending public and private money and having these blended finance facilities and concessional capital. I mean, there's a lot of jargon and this can get very technical very quickly. I try in the chapter on natural capital to make it accessible, but there are good examples, especially for agri food companies that are starting to invest in sustainable supply chains. And one example I talk about in the book is this large scale transformation of agriculture across the state of Andhra Pradesh in India, where the government has really helped by now over a million, one and a half million farmers to transition to community based natural farming, which I would call sort of beyond organic in a way, without industrial fertilizers and pesticides. And the government is helping them not only to be more productive and profitable because they save all this money for external products in agriculture, but they also act as the off taker and the broker for the produce. So they then negotiate price with large agri food companies that can buy from thousands and over a million of smallholder farmers. And that leadership to transform that entire agricultural sector did cost some money, but it's actually generating even more money. It saves the state government about $1 billion per year in subsidies for fossil fuel based fertilizers that they used to pay and hand out to the farmers. And they don't need to do that anymore because the soil biodiversity is now generating the productivity and the nutritional value on which they can run their agriculture. [01:03:00] Speaker A: That leads perfectly, Tim into another quote from Generation Restoration. The planetary crisis we find ourselves in does not surprise many of the world's indigenous peoples. The indigenous worldview offers a profound lens through which to understand life, one that is rooted in to interconnectedness, spirituality and respect for the natural world. Now, from Take no More Than Half to Accion andina Satyama and Natura 2000, what principle did these models share, Tim, that can be scaled globally? [01:03:31] Speaker D: Well, first of all Jackie, I love that how thoroughly you've read the book. This is really the most well prepared podcast I've been on so far. Thank you, thank you, thank you for doing that. So I think the principles we find in indigenous wisdom are surprisingly similar to the principles of common sense. But as Voltaire said, you know, common sense is actually not very common if you dig below the surface of local traditional ecological knowledge. You don't necessarily have to go to indigenous wisdom to find the same principles of the responsible harvest, because we have in our mythology in the Western world. We also have a lot of cautionary tales against over harvesting. Think of the, of the fable of the goose that lays the golden eggs. Yeah, and the farmer then becomes so greedy that he wants all the eggs at the same time. So he slaughters the poor goose and finds that it's just like any other goose on the inside and he loses that sort of perpetual source of income. There are many. There's a lot of advice we can find that we don't have to take from indigenous people. But what I think makes indigenous wisdom special is that very long and reciprocal relationship to the land. So in my view, Indigenous wisdom really holds part of the key of unlocking the current disastrous, suicidal war with nature that we're locked into and finding a new way of living and balance between humans and nature. In Axion Andina, which is a phenomenal movement in Latin America that is unfolding to restore the forests of the high Andes, it is actually the relationship with the mountain and with the land and with the ecosystem that triggers that investment. Of the time of now, almost 30,000 people were restoring forests in over 400 locations. They planted over 10 million native trees so far because they understand that if they give to the mountain and to the existence, that the mountain will give to them, in this case, water, but also a sense of belonging and community and taking care of each other between the ecosystem and the local communities, that is much more powerful than money. Actually would be very difficult to find enough financing to pay 30,000 people to spend so much of their time and effort to do this. So I think that motivation. It's important for us to remember that there are more powerful forces than money in the world, and we can tap into them for repairing our relationship and for restoring nature at planetary scale. [01:06:10] Speaker A: Absolutely. One thing that comes into my mind a couple of times during our conversation, Tim, is, you know, we talk about the indigenous peoples and actually, you know, depends on what country you're living in or from or whatever. But really, for most of us, although we may not be considered indigenous in the same way as, say, those people that you've just spoken about who are taking the way they work today from the Inca empire, but back in Ireland, you know, we were very involved in the land only a few hundred years ago, and still lots of people are, but, you know, before industrialization. So I guess what I'm trying to say is the next quote from your book, Tim. I think we can all tap into it much in the same way as you talked about your own connection when you go out, you know, on your own farm and so on, and that this is the quote. The deep understanding of sustainable land management that exists within these communities draws on the wisdom of their ancestors. And I think that we all have that possibility. And from your own experience, Tim, you know, visiting and working with these people and working with the UN and writing your book, what would be sort of a short list of guidance you'd like to pass on in this kind of nature? [01:07:17] Speaker D: The shortest guidance I could give possibly, is to open not only our minds, but open our hearts. And that is more easily said than done for many of us because we live in a very secular world where you have to justify every decision you make in a very rational way. But sometimes, listening to nature, we can shortcut that attunement with nature, being in tune with nature and go straight past us through the intellectual of understanding of how this works, and tune our inner radio to receive these signals from nature. And nature will tell us what the right way is and what to do. Sometimes on our farm, my wife take some decisions and I sort of sometimes wonder why. And she says, well, it's just the right thing to do. And it turns out she's always right. [01:08:08] Speaker A: Yeah, fantastic. [01:08:09] Speaker D: I think it's the, that, that kind of intuition, we all have access to it. We. And we all have a right to access it because we are divine beings. And I think being in tune with nature can teach us how to receive those signals again, but it does require listening and it does require time and some attention. So I think leave your mobile phone at home for a day and go for a walk and open, open your heart to the possibility to understand nature fully because we all can. [01:08:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I absolutely, you know, 300% agree with you on that one, Tim. And I think, I think again because of, you know, the wide reach of your work with the book and obviously other work, the potential is there. And I think it's, you know, if, if we can touch people in that, on that personal level, what actually is going to improve their own quality of life, isn't it? [01:08:59] Speaker D: Oh, 100%. It's, it's not only the quality of life and the health. And I also write in the book about the, the many health benefits of being more in tune with nature, but I think it is the spiritual fulfillment, I call it joy, that, that really should be the default condition of being a human and being alive. That joy of being in touch with the rest of creation that we can tap into and that is, it is priceless and it's beautiful. I can only rec to anybody to make that a big part of their life's quest to find that joy and be in touch with nature in that way because nature can teach us about that joy and how to access it. [01:09:38] Speaker A: Yeah, and obviously it's not exactly what your book is about, but obviously when people feel that connection or feel connected in general, you know, through nature, with nature, in nature, etc. The chances of depression and so on are lowered. [01:09:52] Speaker D: Oh, it's. There's a medical journal article I cite in the book that spending 120 minutes per week in nature lowers your blood pressure, it evens out your cholesterol, it's good against depression, it stabilizes your mental health, it is obviously good for your physical activity. And they're really only upsides of repairing this relationship with nature. I've yet to see any downside. There are. I mean, we also have to clearly say that at the moment, the way our world economy is structured, there are vested interests that are, that stand to lose from, for example, the energy transition and regenerative farming and moving away from large scale factory farming and the large scale profit machine that our agri food complex system has become. But those losers would be few and they would probably get over it. I think on the whole, humanity stands a lot to gain from a new relationship with nature. [01:10:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Again, I'm going to say I entirely agree. Of course, systems that really need to be broken down fairly quickly. But then, you know, the, the wonderful payback that will come afterwards is, is probably something lots of people can't even imagine. [01:11:00] Speaker D: I think that's right. And the, the other, the other thing to consider here is that we really don't have any other option because this term the suicidal war with nature is actually the UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres, who, who's used that frequently, said this is, this is a war we cannot win. So there is no option for us to just continue with business as usual. And we're seeing that with intensifying climate change and the ecological crisis, we just have to change some fundamental things and they will change life as we know it for the better. This is to all come back to Jane Goodall's forward. It is a next step in human evolution that we can take and that we have to take together. [01:11:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Mentioning the UN again, of course, leads really well into chapter seven, which is your second last chapter. But where there is danger, the saving power also grows. And in this chapter, Tim, you know, you bring the reader to some of the UN world restoration flagships around the world. And I think to continue to be realistic, but positive and optimistic, it might be nice to touch on one or two of those and the learnings that could be perhaps transferred. [01:12:16] Speaker D: Yeah. So when we designed the UN decade with this small team at the UN Environment Program at the Food and Agriculture Organization, we thought, you know, what, what would make this, the scale that we need, really visible. So we designed this concept of world restoration flagships which should be really audacious goals, wildly ambitious of restoring nature at significant scale. So one example I already gave, Accion Andina has that status. Another one is the Atlantic Forest of Brazil. So all the eastern seaboard of Brazil that used to be the third largest rainforest in the world after the Congo Basin, the Amazon, and now there's about 10% of it left, but which has the potential and opportunity to be restored at significant scale and where over a million hectares has already been restored. But they want to get to 15 million hectares, which is a huge, huge area. But they're well on their way. Another example is maybe that will have been announced by the time the podcast airs, I hope. Otherwise I'll give away a little preview here, but it's the Eastern Cape in South Africa where the tropical thicket used to cover over a million hectares of really the best Big 5 habitat in the world, best black rhino habitat in the world. And then over 200 years ago it started to be overgrazed by merino sheep and now it looks like a brown and parched landscape where again, coming back to shifting baseline syndrome, people would think, oh, this is just what a African savannah looks like, right? It's sort of brownish and few trees, but this used to be very densely forested. Impenetrable thicket of speck Boem is this native plant that is the sort of the main species there. And we can get that back. We can get that landscape back that provides water for. Could provide water for all the cities around that ecosystem, could provide amazing habitat for wildlife and could also provide higher income for the farmers if we can get a global carbon market to work. And I think that is one of the things I talk about in the book. We have to trigger investments in nature beyond our traditional view of seeing nature just as a source of food and through agriculture and carbon markets. Are one of those. Those ways to do that? [01:14:36] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And obviously in some, in some countries we're looking at, you know, biodiversity units and all that type of stuff as well. So, you know, there's a lot of great things being explored in the final chapter of Generation Restoration, which is called Stubborn Optimists. Great name, by the way. Opens with this brilliant quote. The more powerful, positive and detailed our vision of the future, the more likely we are to achieve it. I think that's just such a superb quote. And I guess to end the conversation and leave, you know, the audience and your readers with a final comment and advice, what would it be, Tim? [01:15:13] Speaker D: So that quote is from a group called Brahma Kumaras. It's a women led spiritual movement and they also run a number of farms in India. I think the final thought, I think also coming back to in the final chapter, our own farm and what we're doing is that it's important to understand that where we focus our attention and our energy, that is where we can materialize change. So start with thinking positively about the future, which is why optimism is not something that happens to you. It's actually a mindset we all have to cultivate. Conditional optimism is a mindset that I talk about in the book that is necessary for any change to occur. So focusing our energy on a powerful, positive, forward looking vision is really, it's. It's a necessity to trigger any type of change. Which is why I wanted to write a book that is very, very positive. Maybe bad news sells more, I don't know, but it definitely slows down our energy, our creativity. And anxiety is not a good place to start. Start with creating hope through action. Do something, whatever, however small it is. Make the first step, take the first walk in nature, join with others, talk about it. Join restoration initiatives close by. That action will create more hope, it will create more positive vision for the future and that in turn will create more action. It's a virtuous cycle that, that we can start today and it can start very small. [01:16:37] Speaker A: That's absolutely wonderful advice, Tim. It's been the most amazing conversation with you, which doesn't surprise me, obviously, after reading the book. And I am delighted and honoured that we will go out on the day of your launch. [01:16:47] Speaker D: Thank you so much, Jackie. And thanks again for reading the book and reflecting it back to me. It was really fascinating speaking with you and also good luck with your farm and what you're doing in Spain. [01:16:58] Speaker A: Thank you so much, Tim. This is constructive voices.